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Old 01-18-2009, 06:04 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Jesus, Muslims and Jews

Peace to all of you--

I have wondered for a long time... Beside the political problems between Christians and Muslims through the ages, I wonder why is it that Christians are more kind towards the Judaism rather than Islaam?

I understand that Muslims and Christians have been killing each other for ages, their leaders using their religions mostly for wars that turn out to be for either land or political domination, or both.

My question is really, why do Christians hate Muslims so much, calling them unbelievers when it comes to Jesus, yet they do not do so towards Jews (not that I claim that they should call Jews names!)?

Majority of the Jews have consistently refused to believe Jesus the Messiah sent to them. They do not believe in the New Testament, they do not study that part of the Holy Bible. Some Jews (in the old ages more so than now) charged Mary pbuh to be a "whore" and Jesus to be a "*******."

Muslims on the other hand, have always been taught that Islam teaches that Jesus was one of the greatest Prophets, that he is The Messiah. Also, they believe in his virgin birth and in his Second Coming. In Islaam, Jesus is believed most to be alike to Adam pbut (Adam believed to be the first Prophet from God Almighty) because neither had a human father.

For many Christians, it is offensive that Muslims believe Jesus pbuh to be the Messiah and great Prophet pbuh, but not devine. Yet, Jews do not even recognize Jesus as a Prophet, let alone the Messiah--but Christians are battling to win over their hearts.

Can someone enlighten me about this? Do you think there is lack of an understanding between Christians and Muslims? Why are Christians calling Muslims as the rejecters of Christ, yet not the Jews?
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Old 01-18-2009, 06:10 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Jesus, Muslims and Jews

Why don't we also talk about the Muslims and Christians who get along just fine.
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Old 01-18-2009, 06:36 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Jesus, Muslims and Jews

Peace--
No problem with me. I know many who are doing well and who express the belief that they believe in the Same, True God. But, a lot of times I encouter christian priests (i.e. their books, TV shows, sermons and such) who are just dying to convince the Jews to accept the Christ, call Muslims antichrist, etc. Yet, they are deceiving the Christians to some degree. How can one be antichrist simply because they do not believe Jesus to be devine, but accept him as the world's Messiah and one of the most favorite Prophets of all time? Muslims even have hadiths attributed to Jesus pbuh. They are awaiting him to help humanity clense itself of evil, to establish true faith and rule for all. The Holy Qur'an mentions Jesus pbuh an his mother Mary pbuh as two most pure humans who were granted great blessings from God Almighty. One chapter in the Holy Qur'an is named after Mary (Miriam) pbuh. Yet, certain Christians totally reject Muslims as followers of Christ, but are frantically attempting to convince Jews that Jesus was a Jew who is the Messiah they have been waiting for.
Does not make sense
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Old 01-18-2009, 06:54 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Jesus, Muslims and Jews

Maybe its because I'm from California, but I don't ever come across that.
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Old 01-18-2009, 07:41 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Jesus, Muslims and Jews

Hi Amica,

Your basic thesis is interesting enough, but I have no sense of the extent of the ideological differences or the evangelization efforts you're referring to. It kind of feels like an unwieldy, abstract set of issues to me.

Maybe I need to get out more often, but I see very little indication of Christians trying to convert Jews. Most religions just preach to the converted. Exceptions: Some Baptists and Watchtower types who will try to convert anybody.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amica View Post
I wonder why is it that Christians are more kind towards the Judaism rather than Islaam?
I have no sense for this at all. There have been several large-scale surveys in the US that indicate that the average American admits they know very little about Islam. How can they form attitudes about Islam when they don't understand it?
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Old 01-18-2009, 12:09 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Jesus, Muslims and Jews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amica View Post
..
I have wondered for a long time... Beside the political problems between Christians and Muslims through the ages, I wonder why is it that Christians are more kind towards the Judaism rather than Islaam?..

My theory1. is RACISM towards Mongolian bloodlines.

If you look up the latter parts of the history of the Mongols, the crusading wars even come into perspective.

This is just a theory I`m working on, so its not my opinion yet, btw, and my facts are still a little shaky.

Conquering Europe was unfinished business, and after the Germans were defeated it was already a done deal but the Mongolians packed their bags to attend a funeral when Gengis Khan passed away. Thus leaving a vaccuum and having to start all over again. The Muslims who claimed to be descended from Gengis eventually continued on to invade Europe.

When you look up what happened after Gengis Khan died, his oldest son and another son (chosen lineage of Gengis that went Muslim) got into a blood feud during the Gengis conquests, and that continued on for generations, in the form of Islam, Buddhism in conjuction with southern Russia, Islamic areas (facts still shaky). The impact of this, seems to have resulted in Islam still standing Mongolian or not, whereas the buddhist factions eventually got assimulated. Between the areas that the two sons had control, you see that it clearly splits into two parts, and one side goes Muslim, and the Muslims went east and west.

So it is my theory that the Islamic factions that contained Mongolian lineage was the main reason why the Muslims invaded Europe. Although altogether, the racism in Islam, nubbed out that fact altogether.

And thus the phenomena we see today.

Peace.

TK

p.s. it is also my theory that the Russians are unusually treated by Europe due to these distinct reasons as well.
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Old 01-18-2009, 12:17 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Jesus, Muslims and Jews

My Theory2. is.

Mohamed was the first warlord who unified regions and actually made it out alive and even became recognized as a prophet. And what we see today is the result of this accomplishment.

Most unifiers are prone to assassinations from internal power struggles IMO, so to become a prophet on top of those accomplishments are quite unique in our global history.

TK
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Old 01-18-2009, 01:33 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Jesus, Muslims and Jews

Um...historically speaking, Christianity has not been particularly friendly to the Jews. There is a long historical tradition of Christian persecution of Jewish people, of which the Holocaust was the climax.

Historically speaking, Islam has a long history of friendly relations with Jews, not least with major Jewish centres in Baghdad.

Of course, there are variations on both themes - and as pointed out above prejudice and persecution have not been universal - but if I were pushed I would have definitely suggested that over the past 1500-2000 years, Judaism has probably enjoyed better relations with Islam, excepting for more recent history from the 20th century.

2c.
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Old 01-18-2009, 05:19 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Jesus, Muslims and Jews

After checking things out in brief, it seems that I need at least to be accurate on some Mongol facts. It was the Russian Mongolian factions that converted to Islam and started fighting the factions in the east. Overall, I think I am still accurate in representing the Mongol feud between a first born and a favorite son and their descendants. Of which in this case the first son`s descendants converted to Islam, and controlled areas that are currently either Russia, or all of Arab regions. This is right smack Islam territory.

Golden Horde territories. File:Golden Horde 1389.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(you might get a good idea of what my point is)


The reason for bad blood between the Islamic Mongols and Mongols in the East. Some might ask why I am putting these facts forward. I just wanted to first establish that the Islam we see today is not the same as the Islam that existed prior to the Mongol invasions. From there, we may be able to better identify what Islamic history is about, and I think history is a bit shaky in education when it comes to these things I view as significant events in Islamic History.

Batu Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
Batu Khan (Mongolian: Бат Хаан, Russian: Баты́й) (c. 1205–1255) was a Mongol ruler and the founder of the Blue Horde. Batu was a son of Jochi and grandson of Genghis Khan. His Blue Horde became the Golden Horde (or Kipchak Khanate), which ruled Rus and the Caucasus for around 250 years, ..

Although Genghis Khan recognized Jochi as his son, his parentage was always in question, as his mother Börte, Genghis Khan's wife, had been captured and he was born shortly after her return. During the lifetime of Genghis, this issue was public knowledge but it was taboo to publicly discuss it. Still, it drove a wedge between Jochi and his father; just before Jochi's death, he and Genghis almost fought a civil war because of Jochi's sullen refusal to join in military campaigns..
The reason why Jochi, the first son refused to join further military campaigns is..

Jochi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
..Jochi engaged in extensive negotiation with the town to persuade it to surrender peacefully and save it from the destruction. This action was seen as militarily unsound by his brother, Chagatai. Chagatai wanted to destroy the city but Genghis Khan had promised the city to Jochi after his victory. This difference of opinion on military affairs deepened a rift between Jochi and Chagatai. Genghis Khan intervened in the campaign and appointed Ögedei as the commander of the operation. Ögedei resumed the operations vigorously and the town was duly captured, sacked, massacred and destroyed thoroughly..
Ogedei was the third in-line to the throne and Gengis`s favorite son. Jochi went up north (south Russia) and stopped talking to the rest of the family, IMO probably for being disrepected.

Forwarding history, after the families stopped talking. With regards to the descendants of Jochi.

Battle of Ain Jalut - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
..Berke Khan, the Khan of the Kipchak Khanate in Russia, had converted to Islam, and watched with horror as his cousin destroyed the Abbasid Caliph, the spiritual head of Islam. Muslim historian Rashid al-Din quoted Berke as sending the following message to Mongke Khan, protesting the attack on Baghdad (not knowing Mongke had died in China): "he has sacked all the cities of the Muslims, and has brought about the death of the Caliph. With the help of God I will call him to account for so much innocent blood."[9] The Mamluks, learning through spies that Berke was both a Muslim and not fond of his cousin, were careful to nourish their ties to him and his Khanate.

After the Mongol succession was finally settled, with Kublai as the last Great Khan, Hulagu returned to his lands by 1262, and massed his armies to attack the Mamluks and avenge Ain Jalut. However, Berke Khan initiated a series of raids in force which lured Hulagu north away from the Levant to meet him. Hulagu suffered severe defeat in an attempted invasion north of the Caucasus in 1263. This was the first open war between Mongols, and signaled the end of the unified empire..
Berke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
But the reason of the conflict between Berke and Hulegu was not only religion. It was territory. Mongke khan gave Azerbaijan, which was given to Jochi by Chinghis khan before, to his brother Hulegu. Although, Berke did not like the situation, he was patient till Mongke's death..
By this time Jochi`s descandants are fully declaring war on their cousins in the east, descended from Ogedei.


Then later on, probably a new wave of Muslims in the middle east claiming ancestry of Gengis who went west and east.
Timur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
Timur belonged to a family of Turkicized Barlas clan of Mongol origin. He was Turkic in identity and language,[5][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15] he aspired to restore the Mongol Empire. ..

..supported Timur's notion that he was descended from Genghis Khan.
Note: With these facts in mind, if one checks into the crusades, its probably possible to derive a clearer picture than the standard one.

And by now I hope you are convinced that instead of just mentioning in a small paragraph of European history that the Mongolians were just a bunch of barbarians not worthy of noting, it makes some sense to at least shine some light in these areas to make some sense of history.
Hey, Vikings weren`t barbarians either, just check it out..
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Old 01-18-2009, 05:58 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Jesus, Muslims and Jews

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Originally Posted by TheKhan View Post

And thus the phenomena we see today.
What phenomena is that?

As for history, how much of it is relevant to present day Christian evangelization agendas?
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Old 01-18-2009, 06:53 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Jesus, Muslims and Jews

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Originally Posted by Netti-Netti View Post
What phenomena is that?

As for history, how much of it is relevant to present day Christian evangelization agendas?

I call it the "my kids are better than your kids forever phenomena in the name of Christ" phenomena.

But let me think twice on this.

TK
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Old 01-18-2009, 07:58 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Jesus, Muslims and Jews

Peace to all--
I appreciate all of you trying to make sense of the things that went on. TheKhan, thanks for trying to explain your personal view. However, I must correct you in something. You state that Muhammad pbuh was a "warlord" who was then recognized as a Prophet. This is inaccurate. If you look at both islamic and non-islamic sources, Prophet Muhammad claimed prophethood in his 20s. He was a merchant, not a warlord. Prior to responding to pagan military threats and tortures, Muhammad pbuh and first Muslims did not retaliate back towards those who were persecuting them. Arabian pagans were merchants who profited on their idols. To have someone call people to believe in One God was a threat to their finances and the human slavery they practiced. Thus, they killed and tortured first Muslims. Muslims escaped and one of the communities who kindly gave Muslims place to live in peace and away from persecution was a Christian community. Not until Muslims received revelation from God that it was ok for them to defend and attack back if they were attacked first (and they were!) did the Muslims engage in war.

But, we seem to be unable to answer the question of my post. Why call Muslims (who recognize and accept Jesus as the Messiah and one of the best humans that ever existed) the antichrist and not the Jews (who actually never recognized Jesus as the Messiah or a prophet)?

I personally feel that it is a great propaganda that has been among the christian societies ever since Christians even heard of Muslims.
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Old 01-18-2009, 08:42 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Jesus, Muslims and Jews

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Originally Posted by Netti-Netti View Post
What phenomena is that?

As for history, how much of it is relevant to present day Christian evangelization agendas?
I documented who the b*stard was in my long quoted post, and what that b*stard lineage even in doubt as being a b*stard of a person who almost took over the entire Eurasian continent, has accomplished in all areas concerning Islam (and in fact Russia).

Well we did have an old name for the "phenomena" .. we used to call it a "crusade". And going back to my point, I believe even Hitler had plans for Palestine. Pretty easy to guess what Hitler would have done right?

IMO, Zionism is the same kind of racist response towards Islam. But you can try asking the evangelists directly you might get another answer.

The crusades were a response towards Muslims who tried to take over Europe, correct? And at sometime through the series of crusades, Christians were dealing with Mongols and Mongol mix-bloods because they sacked the Arabs; so the latter parts of the series of crusades, Christians were dealing with not the Arabs who prompted the crusades. In fact they were fighting Mongolians at some point calling them Muslims.

You can put two or three empires worth of culture into an all-in-one category as "Islam" like a racist slant, and very well the reasons for crusading may not have had to change that much, that being your point. But thats like calling all Anglo-Africans as people from Africa when they might be Anglo(white)-Afro-Americans.

Don`t bother with the evangelist angle with me, maybe with someone else in this thread. I just had a good discussion at another thread.

Frankly I just wish all these centuries worth of Abrahamic hysteria would go away.

TK

p.s. IMO, its the b*stards from multiple cultures we need to fear.
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Old 01-18-2009, 09:05 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Jesus, Muslims and Jews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amica View Post
.. thanks for trying to explain your personal view. However, I must correct you in something. You state that Muhammad pbuh was a "warlord" who was then recognized as a Prophet. This is inaccurate. ..

Well according to the books, or maybe as a Muslim, you are most likely correct. But no matter what others tell me, do I ever doubt that Muhammad`s accomplishments are the equivalent to Unifiers like (Alexander the Great, Shaka Zulu, etc..) and more. Maybe the word "warlord" was inappropriate, but warlords are lords who war. And if Muhammad never went to battle I will agree with you.

I thought he had experienced battle as a prophet, and do you know any other prophet who fought on his caliber? And my point was that, that is unique in our history.

To somewhat support my argument, I`m not good at this with scripture, but wasn`t the next prophet suppose to be a warrior king like David according to the book? I think Muhammads actions and statements are partly justified in those prophecies if I remember correctly.

TK
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Old 01-19-2009, 05:57 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Jesus, Muslims and Jews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amica
Why call Muslims (who recognize and accept Jesus as the Messiah and one of the best humans that ever existed) the antichrist and not the Jews (who actually never recognized Jesus as the Messiah or a prophet)?
These things you are talking about depend upon what Christian sect, however I have never heard the Muslim people called 'The antichrist', nor the Jews either. The main difference in how Christians treat the two religions is not trinity but the things written about Jews in Romans 10 and other places. To a Christian, the Jews are not able to accept Jesus, because the Christian divine plan prevents them. Because of that, Jews are not thought of by Christians as brain washed or stubborn; and they don't think of them as Satanic paws. Some think they are 'Lost'. Its pretty rare that Christians try to evangelize them, although there are times where certain sects of Christians might. Muslims, on the other hand, are not mentioned in Christian writings. That is why there is a difference in treatment that varies depending upon which Christian group you talk to.
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