Jesus, sex and Mary Magdalen

[Thomas]

There is a fragment of an apocryphal gospel, the gospel of Philip, and it tells us much in this regard.

"The Lord loved Mary more than all the other disciples and he kissed her often (on her mouth)..." now the fragment actually says 'kissed her often' and that's it ... modern commentary (not scholarship) has put 'on her mouth' in the gap. Why? Well, where else would he kiss her? Why not the cheek? hand? forehead?

The kiss in those days was exchanged between men (as it is today in many cultures), but that does not assume they are having sex.

So I would reflect on what is being read into the text, out of context of time and place ...

In fact our family has friends and neighbours, among whom are women I kiss upon greeting and women I don't, on the basis of 'comfortability' - some I have known for years and never kissed ... but because I kissed the woman next door, as it were, that does not mean I kissed her on the mouth, nor that we had children ...

There's a huge assumption founded on the morality and ethics of the reader, and this is more telling than the text, in my opinion...

The gospel itself is very heavily influenced by gnostic thought, and Christian sayings have been incorporated into the text ... but this was common gnostic practice to take from all sources (not just Christian), but rather allows the gnostic to show forth his wisdom 'wherever it may be found' ... so we can reliably assume that this gnostic Philip (who makes no claim to be the Philip numbered among the disciples) is following common acceptable practice of incorporation, and the question of whether he understood the original meaning of the text copied is questionable.

Thomas

[Dor]

See proof everyone has said everything about him.

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Thomas

The kiss in those days was exchanged between men (as it is today in many cultures), but that does not assume they are having sex.

there is the holy kiss Holy kiss - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Dor

See proof everyone has said everything about him.

What do you expect? Any "famous name" will get talked about... I could stand on my soap box and say all that is said agaisn't Satan is really slander and he likes cute and fluffy things, and I have a photo of him cuddling a bunny rabbit... But yeah any name that is famous... be it a real person or not will gain slander and glory.

[Penguin]

You beat me to it Thomas! It was Phillip I remembered soon as I saw it. Some very good points on the "kissing" and it's implications to jesus and mary. The points Quahom made in his earlier post was really hitting it home, great stuff! You are right about ethics on what a reader believes, again some very strong points. Many thanks gents it has helped me out.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Penguin

Thanks Quahom, some very good points there indeed, things of which I had overlooked especially expecting his followers to leave their wives and still having one himself. You are right, this would have been unthinkable and would have gone against everything that jesus stood for.



Could the old or new testament have had books removed along time ago because they may have contained material which could have suggested jesus had a partner/companion? I'll try and find out the exact names of these, I don't think it was the book of enoch though. Many thanks.

Good question. If one reads the "Apocrypha", there is never mention of Jesus taking a wife. There are lots of other issues, but not one concerning a continuing lineage of Jesus after the fact.

[kiwimac]

Actually i would argue that there is good circumstantial evidence that Jesus was in fact married.

[Penguin]

Actually i would argue that there is good circumstantial evidence that Jesus was in fact married.

Based on what please? Many thanks.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by kiwimac

Actually i would argue that there is good circumstantial evidence that Jesus was in fact married.

Let's hear the circumstantial evidence.

[Penguin]

Anybody else got anything else to this thread before it plummets down to the bottom of the pile? I was rather hoping for a nice good old fashioned debate on this but it seems to be not a popular issue. Oh well never mind. Many thanks to those who did reply.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Penguin

Anybody else got anything else to this thread before it plummets down to the bottom of the pile? I was rather hoping for a nice good old fashioned debate on this but it seems to be not a popular issue. Oh well never mind. Many thanks to those who did reply.

It is one of those many things that is left in limbo, burden of proof in this case is on those who wish to go against status quo and 2,000 years. For some this would be an issue, for many it is conversation, but the bottom line currently is that there isn't enough of anything to toss over current thought.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Penguin

Anybody else got anything else to this thread before it plummets down to the bottom of the pile? I was rather hoping for a nice good old fashioned debate on this but it seems to be not a popular issue. Oh well never mind. Many thanks to those who did reply.

Jesus, Mary, and Pinchme sat on a log. Jesus and Mary fell off, and who was left?

Chris

[kiwimac]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Let's hear the circumstantial evidence.

1: Jesus meets Mary in the Garden (post-resurrection) first thing he says is " Don't cling to me!" You don't say that to someone unless touch has been part of your relationship with them. Unmarried males and females did NOT touch in that culture.

2: Mary calls him "Rabboni" which can mean both, 'My master" and 'Husband', the two terms being interchangable in the culture.

3: For Jesus to have been an unmarried 'rabbi' would have been very unusual indeed in that time and culture.

[flowperson]

Hi Guys:

I remember a scene in The Last Temptation of Christ where Willem DaFoe as Jesus and Barbara Hershey (yum yum...no wonder they named chocolate after her) as Mary Magdalen lay down and pressed the soles of their feet together and held that position for a while.

Anybody got any info on the cultural/traditional significance of that act ? I do know that more ancient beliefs held that women received spiritual energy through their feet, or at least that was a belief among ancient societies even older than those in Jesus' time. Could it have been an act signifying an eternal relationship that transcended their time ?

Just thinking out loud.

flow....

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by kiwimac

1: Jesus meets Mary in the Garden (post-resurrection) first thing he says is " Don't cling to me!" You don't say that to someone unless touch has been part of your relationship with them. Unmarried males and females did NOT touch in that culture.

2: Mary calls him "Rabboni" which can mean both, 'My master" and 'Husband', the two terms being interchangable in the culture.

3: For Jesus to have been an unmarried 'rabbi' would have been very unusual indeed in that time and culture.

Well, ok. But this is what John 20: says: "10Then the disciples went back to their homes, 11but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.

13They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?"
"They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." 14At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.
15"Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?"
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him."
16Jesus said to her, "Mary."
She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).
17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' " 18Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them that he had said these things to her.

As far as unmarried men and women not touching, well Luke has a different take on the matter: " 36Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, so he went to the Pharisee's house and reclined at the table. 37When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, 38and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.

39When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner."
40Jesus answered him, "Simon, I have something to tell you."
"Tell me, teacher," he said.
41"Two men owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,[a] and the other fifty. 42Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"
43Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled."
"You have judged correctly," Jesus said.
44Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."
48Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
49The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" 50Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Finally, though true it was unusual for a Rabbi to be unmarried, it seems that Jesus did alot of things that were unusual for the time. In first century Israel(Palestine), women were considered second-class citizens, akin to slaves. The fact that they are mentioned as avid followers of Jesus is unusual – both that they would be allowed to follow him with his disciples, and unusual that the authors of Jesus’ biographies would mention their presence at all.

Apparently Jesus liked to think outside of the "box", regardless of what others thought.