john1;1-2

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I've searched the entire Bible, for one word to indicate that Jesus is sub-equal to God,.

v/r

Q[/font]

Jesus himself said: "The Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28) We should believe Jesus, for he surely knew the truth about his relationship to his Father. The apostle Paul also knew that God was superior to Jesus, and he said: "The Son [Jesus] himself will also subject himself to . . . God." (1 Corinthians 15:28) This is further seen in Paul’s statement at 1 Corinthians 11:3: "The head of the Christ is God." Jesus acknowledged that he had a superior God when he said to his disciples: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God."—John 20:17.

Never did Jesus claim to be almighty God himself. Any impartial reading of the Bible without preconceived ideas about the Trinity will verify that. For example, at John 3:16, Jesus said: "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son." Just two verses later, Jesus again said that he was "the only-begotten Son of God." (John 3:18) When the Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy, he answered: "Do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?" (John 10:36) Jesus did not say that he was ‘God the Son’ but that he was "God’s Son."

[BlaznFattyz]

John 14:7-10 [7] If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." [8] Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." [9] Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? [10] Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.


John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."


John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.


John 10:37-38 [37] Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. [38] But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."


John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.

John 10:31-33 [31] Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, [32] but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" [33] "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Luke 5:20-21 When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven." 21The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, "Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.


John 17:10 [Speaking to the Father] All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

[mee]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

John 14:7-10 [7] If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." [8] Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." [9] Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? [10] Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.


John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."


John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.


John 10:37-38 [37] Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. [38] But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."


John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.

John 10:31-33 [31] Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, [32] but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" [33] "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Luke 5:20-21 When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven." 21The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, "Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.


John 17:10 [Speaking to the Father] All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

John14;7-10

7 If YOU men had known me, YOU would have known my Father also; from this moment on YOU know him and have seen him."

8

Philip said to him: "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."

9 Jesus said to him: "Have I been with YOU men so long a time, and yet, Philip, you have not come to know me? He that has seen me has seen the Father [also]. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me? The things I say to YOU men I do not speak of my own originality; but the Father who remains in union with me is doing his works.
I and the Father are one."John 10;30
Or, "at unity." Lit., "one (thing)." Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation.
Believe me that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me; otherwise, believe on account of the works themselves John 14;11
If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me. 38 But if I am doing them, even though YOU do not believe me, believe the works, in order that YOU may come to know and may continue knowing that the Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father .John 10;37-38
Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are. John 17;11 yes unity of purpose works wonders................. and even though the Jews thought wrong things about Jesus , Jesus himself said inJohn 10;36
do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son? Jesus never taught that he was God ,he taught that the father is greater than he was. and he had great aurthority on the earth .the false religious leaders thought many things ,but they were wrong about those thoughts .( now that rings a few bells)
So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was .John 17;5 yes Jesus had a pre-human life in the heavens with his father Jehovah before the world was . Jesus was the only one created by Jehovah alone , he was the only-begotten , John 3;16
I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word. 7 They have now come to know that all the things you gave me are from you; 8 because the sayings that you gave me I have given to them, and they have received them and have certainly come to know that I came out as your representative, and they have believed that you sent me forth. 9 I make request concerning them; I make request, not concerning the world, but concerning those you have given me; because they are yours, 10 and all my things are yours and yours are mine, and I have been glorified among them.John 17;6-10 yes the sayings that Jehovah gave to Jesus ,jesus inturn gave them to his followers.which inturn leads his followers into unity of purpose. yes as John 17;11says
Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are. ......... yes Jesus followers are in unity of purpose just as Jesus was in unity of purpose with his father
(John 17:21) in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.

[JohnOneOne]

Originally Posted by Thomas

What leading Greek scholars say about the NWT:

.....

Dr. William Barclay, a leading Greek scholar, said "it is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest."

.....

For the saake of balance,

Thomas

Yes, 'for the sake of keeping balance,' although I am of the opinion that each of the above evaluations of the New World Translation could be effectively addressed, I would like to touch upon just one of the scholars you listed, Dr. William Barclay, a leading Greek scholar. With respect to the redendering of John 1:1c within Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation as, "and the Word was a god," you had quoted him as saying, "it is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest."

A bit more of the quote in context might be of interest to some here:

"The deliberate distortion of truth by this sect [Jehovah’s Witnesses] is seen in their New Testament translation. J[oh]n i1 is translated: 'Originally the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god,' a translation which is grammatically impossible….It is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest." - "The Expository Times." (Edinburgh, Scotland: T. & T. Clark, v. 1-, Oct. 1889-), vol. 65, October, 1953. BS410 .E8 / 54-43327 r82.

And yet, although within the above he states quite emphatically, "'and the Word was a god,' a translation which is grammatically impossible," it is important to note that, some years later, in a letter written to a Mr. David Burnett, Australia, dated May 20, 1974, Barclay had apparently changed his mind on this, that is, by stating:

"You could translate, so far as the Greek goes: 'the Word was a God.'" - Barclay, William (b.1907-d.1978), Lecturer in the University of Glasgow. Ever Yours; A Selection From the Letters of William Barclay. Rawlins, Clive L. (b.1940-d.?), Editor. (Dunbar, England: Labarum Publications, 1985).
ISBN: 0948095040.

In explaining this a bit further, Barclay had offered this example in another of his works:

"An illustration from English [about the Greek] will make this clear. If I say, 'The preacher is the man,' I use the definite article before both preacher and man, and I thereby identify the preacher with some quite definite individual man whom I have in mind. But, if I say, 'The preacher is man,' I have omitted the definite article before man, and what I mean is that the preacher must be classified as a man, he is in the sphere of manhood, he is a human being." - Barclay, William (b.1907-d.1978), Lecturer in the University of Glasgow. Jesus as They Knew Him. (New York, New York: Harper and Row, 1962), pp. 21, 22.

And yet, if we were to just put in place of "preacher" and "man" the words "Word/Jesus" and "god," along with a few other adjustments, consider how this very point might have otherwise read:

"An illustration from English [about the Greek] will make this clear. If I say, 'The Word/Jesus is the god,' I use the definite article before both Word/Jesus and god, and I thereby identify the word/Jesus with some quite definite individual god whom I have in mind [in this case, Almighty God]. But, if I say, 'The Word/Jesus is god,' I have omitted the definite article before god, and what I mean is that the word/Jesus must be classified as a god, he is in the sphere of godhood, he is a godlike being."

Perhaps this is in some part the reason why it is little known that Barclay had also later admitted this view:

"It is not that Jesus is God. Time and time again the Fourth Gospel speaks of God sending Jesus into the world. Time and time again we see Jesus praying to God….Nowhere does the New Testament identify Jesus with God." - William Barclay - A Spiritual Autobiography. (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1975), pp. 49, 50. BS2351 .B28 A37 1975 / 73-76528.

Interestingly, with respect to the Greek of John 1:1c, a number of other Biblical scholars have admitted the same as Barclay:

"…, from the point of view of grammar alone, κα θες ν λγος [from John 1:1c] could be rendered ‘the Word was a god’…” – Harris, Murray J. (b.?-d.?). "Jesus as God: The New Testament Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus." (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1992), p. 60. BT216 .H37 1992 / 92-30780.

“[John 1:1c] could also be translated: ‘the Word was a god’ or ‘the Word was divine.’ Grammatical considerations alone fail to decide the question, since all three translations [including the common, “and the Word was God”] can be defended on grammatical grounds.” – Loader, William R. G. (b.1944-d.?). The Christology of the Fourth Gospel: Structures and Issues. vol. xxiii [23] of: Beiträge zur Biblischen Exegese und Theologie. (Frankfurt am Main; New York; Paris: Verlag P. Lang, c1989), p. 156. BT198 .L57 1989 / 89-12453. 2nd Revised Edition (Frankfurt am Main, Germany; New York, New York: P. Lang, c1992), p. 155. BT198 .L57 1992 / 92-19502.

"Grammar alone cannot prove how the predicate in this verse [John 1:1c] should be translated, whether ‘God’ or ‘a god.’" – "The Catholic Biblical Quarterly." (Washington, D.C.: Catholic Biblical Association of America, vol. 1-, Jan. 1939-), vol. XIII [13], no. 4, October 1951. BS410 .C3 / a40-000163.

So again, instead of being "grammatically impossible," Christendom's Trinitarian scholars give evidence of an important agreement, that it is, indeed, quite possible to render John 1:1c as, "and the Word was a god"; and thus, this rendering is not "intellectually dishonest."

Agape, Alan.

[1 Tim. 2:5]

[mee]

Originally Posted by JohnOneOne

Yes, 'for the sake of keeping balance,' although I am of the opinion that each of the above evaluations of the New World Translation could be effectively addressed, I would like to touch upon just one of the scholars you listed, Dr. William Barclay, a leading Greek scholar. With respect to the redendering of John 1:1c within Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation as, "and the Word was a god," you had quoted him as saying, "it is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest."

A bit more of the quote in context might be of interest to some here:

"The deliberate distortion of truth by this sect [Jehovah’s Witnesses] is seen in their New Testament translation. J[oh]n i1 is translated: 'Originally the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god,' a translation which is grammatically impossible….It is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest." - "The Expository Times." (Edinburgh, Scotland: T. & T. Clark, v. 1-, Oct. 1889-), vol. 65, October, 1953. BS410 .E8 / 54-43327 r82.

And yet, although within the above he states quite emphatically, "'and the Word was a god,' a translation which is grammatically impossible," it is important to note that, some years later, in a letter written to a Mr. David Burnett, Australia, dated May 20, 1974, Barclay had apparently changed his mind on this, that is, by stating:

"You could translate, so far as the Greek goes: 'the Word was a God.'" - Barclay, William (b.1907-d.1978), Lecturer in the University of Glasgow. Ever Yours; A Selection From the Letters of William Barclay. Rawlins, Clive L. (b.1940-d.?), Editor. (Dunbar, England: Labarum Publications, 1985).
ISBN: 0948095040.

In explaining this a bit further, Barclay had offered this example in another of his works:

"An illustration from English [about the Greek] will make this clear. If I say, 'The preacher is the man,' I use the definite article before both preacher and man, and I thereby identify the preacher with some quite definite individual man whom I have in mind. But, if I say, 'The preacher is man,' I have omitted the definite article before man, and what I mean is that the preacher must be classified as a man, he is in the sphere of manhood, he is a human being." - Barclay, William (b.1907-d.1978), Lecturer in the University of Glasgow. Jesus as They Knew Him. (New York, New York: Harper and Row, 1962), pp. 21, 22.

And yet, if we were to just put in place of "preacher" and "man" the words "Word/Jesus" and "god," along with a few other adjustments, consider how this very point might have otherwise read:

"An illustration from English [about the Greek] will make this clear. If I say, 'The Word/Jesus is the god,' I use the definite article before both Word/Jesus and god, and I thereby identify the word/Jesus with some quite definite individual god whom I have in mind [in this case, Almighty God]. But, if I say, 'The Word/Jesus is god,' I have omitted the definite article before god, and what I mean is that the word/Jesus must be classified as a god, he is in the sphere of godhood, he is a godlike being."

Perhaps this is in some part the reason why it is little known that Barclay had also later admitted this view:

"It is not that Jesus is God. Time and time again the Fourth Gospel speaks of God sending Jesus into the world. Time and time again we see Jesus praying to God….Nowhere does the New Testament identify Jesus with God." - William Barclay - A Spiritual Autobiography. (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1975), pp. 49, 50. BS2351 .B28 A37 1975 / 73-76528.

Interestingly, with respect to the Greek of John 1:1c, a number of other Biblical scholars have admitted the same as Barclay:

"…, from the point of view of grammar alone, κα θες ν λγος [from John 1:1c] could be rendered ‘the Word was a god’…” – Harris, Murray J. (b.?-d.?). "Jesus as God: The New Testament Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus." (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1992), p. 60. BT216 .H37 1992 / 92-30780.

“[John 1:1c] could also be translated: ‘the Word was a god’ or ‘the Word was divine.’ Grammatical considerations alone fail to decide the question, since all three translations [including the common, “and the Word was God”] can be defended on grammatical grounds.” – Loader, William R. G. (b.1944-d.?). The Christology of the Fourth Gospel: Structures and Issues. vol. xxiii [23] of: Beiträge zur Biblischen Exegese und Theologie. (Frankfurt am Main; New York; Paris: Verlag P. Lang, c1989), p. 156. BT198 .L57 1989 / 89-12453. 2nd Revised Edition (Frankfurt am Main, Germany; New York, New York: P. Lang, c1992), p. 155. BT198 .L57 1992 / 92-19502.

"Grammar alone cannot prove how the predicate in this verse [John 1:1c] should be translated, whether ‘God’ or ‘a god.’" – "The Catholic Biblical Quarterly." (Washington, D.C.: Catholic Biblical Association of America, vol. 1-, Jan. 1939-), vol. XIII [13], no. 4, October 1951. BS410 .C3 / a40-000163.

So again, instead of being "grammatically impossible," Christendom's Trinitarian scholars give evidence of an important agreement, that it is, indeed, quite possible to render John 1:1c as, "and the Word was a god"; and thus, this rendering is not "intellectually dishonest."

Agape, Alan.

[1 Tim. 2:5]

nice one and that is very honest of you to put that up here .

its good to get things right inline with what the bible REALLY teaches.


it puts us on the right track and i like 1 timothy 2;5

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,

[mee]

its good to see that the whole of the bible harmonizes, when JOHN 1;1 is translated in the right way.



In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. NWT

Jesus—A Godlike One; Divine
Joh 1:1—“and the Word was a god (godlike; divine)”
Gr., καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (kai the·os′ en ho lo′gos)