Justify The Burkha Please.

[Amica]

Just like you said that in the western society nudity is acceptable, so is the covering in the islamic society acceptable. While westerners may have no shame on showing their bodies to others, so do not Muslims feel shame in showing their piety.
Western attack on Musilm women is worse than the attack on Muslim men today. While, yes, there are domestic abuses going on in the islamic societies just like everywhere in the world, there are also thousands of Muslim women who enjoy being Muslim, enjoy being religious and abide by the religious laws of our faith.
Muslim women do not attack western women for being who they are, so please do not attack our own way of life.
I would rather be clean, free of deseases, with dignity and pride in who I am as a Muslim woman, rather than being sexually exploited by socieites. It is the Western culture that promotes rape of a woman, not Islam.

[Amica]

By the way,
Muslim men have also laws to abide by: they cannot wear shorts above the knee level, they are not to look lustfully at women, etc.
The whole point of woman trying to be in control of herself is because by the nautral law given by God Almighty women are more capable to control their sexual drives than men.
Now, someone will be out there who says that Muslim men do not know how to control themselves and that is why women are 'sexually opressed.' Just as a Muslim woman is commanded to stay clean, so is a Musilm man. He cannot have sexual intercourse unless married and with his wife, he is forbiden to rape, he is forbiden to sexually exploit women at all.
A woman in Islam is a leader of her society.
When the western women became behaving in the way they were biologically not created (like men, that is) that is when the rise of free sex started. While the ideology of western feminism started fair: social justice for political reasons and educational reasons, it brought a different outcome for women. Today they have children out of wedlock, very few people feel the need to marry and have families, because men think: "Why buy milk when I can have a cow for free?" People divorce easily.
Free sex is on the rise even more in western societies where adultery is open: now you have group sex clubs and people cheat like never before. I am not saying this is all women's fault, but they did set themselves up for sexual exploitation.

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

An excellent argument. I would like to reitterate that my questions are in no way an attack on Muslim men or women as you seem to assume.

Originally Posted by Amica

Muslim men have also laws to abide by: they cannot wear shorts above the knee level, they are not to look lustfully at women, etc.

I was surpirised to read this, Thank you, I did not know.

Originally Posted by Amica

Today they have children out of wedlock, very few people feel the need to marry and have families, because men think: "Why buy milk when I can have a cow for free?"

This is totally untrue and I think quite offensive. I have no intention of ever marrying, not because I am immoral or non commital, or because I think "Why buy milk when I can have a cow for free?". I will not marry because I do not belong to a religion which requires marriage.

Originally Posted by Amica

Free sex is on the rise even more in western societies where adultery is open: now you have group sex clubs and people cheat like never before.

The people who partake in these activities do not see any wrong in them, they are simply enjoying the human body, and why not?

Originally Posted by Amica

I am not saying this is all women's fault, but they did set themselves up for sexual exploitation.

I see no exploitation in any volume of consetual sex

[thipps]

Originally Posted by Amica

Muslim men have also laws to abide by: they cannot wear shorts above the knee level, they are not to look lustfully at women, etc

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

I was surpirised to read this, Thank you, I did not know.

h| Awaiting_the_fifth,
If you read the Qur’an, it mentioned the ‘Hijab’ for the man before the mentioning of the ‘Hijab’ for the women. It is mentioned in Ch. No. 24 (Surah Nur), Verse No. 30:
Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. [Quran, 24:30]
The next verse [24:31] says...
‘And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers,...’, and a big list of ‘Mahram’, the close relatives which she cant marry is given, and but natural, in front of the chaste women - Besides these, she should maintain the Hijab.
The criteria for Hijab in Islam, can be found in the Qur’an, and the Authentic Hadith. There are six criteria, which are as follows:
1. First is extent of covering, which is the only difference between a man and a woman. For the man, he has to be covered from the naval to the knee. For the woman, her complete body should be covered - the only part that can be seen is the face and the hands up to the wrist. If she wishes to cover them, she is most welcome. Some scholars say that these should also be covered. Otherwise the full body should be covered. This is the only criteria which differs, between the man and the woman.
2. The clothes he/she wears should not be so tight that it reveals the figure.
3. It should not be so transparent, so that you can see through.
4. He/She should not wear glamorous clothes, which attracts the opposite sex.
5. A person should not wear clothing, which resembles that of the opposite sex. e.g. - like you find men wearing earnings. It is prohibited in Islam.
6. And the last criteria is, you should not wear clothes that resemble that of an unbeliever. e.g. the standard clothing of a Christian preacher by which he is identified as a preacher.
These are the six basic criteria of Hijab in Islam. Again, i reiterate that the difference lies in the extent of application of the first one only. All the rest apply in the same manner to men and women both.
All those men out there wearing shorts which expose thier thighs are not following islamic law. All those men out there who wear tight jeans are violating islamic law. I am saying these things cause non-muslims think that the concept of 'Hijab' applies only to women and thats not correct.
Hope this clear things up for you.
And Allah knows best.

[I, Brian]

sasa, the posts were not deleted, merely removed from the public boards so that this discussion could continue on the issue of burkhas while I considered what to do about you and your somewhat disruptive behaviour.

Please note that joining with multiple aliases is not acceptable -you currently have 5 all registered under false e-mail addresses - and neither is trying to coerce members against staff decisions. You are offered hospitality on this board, and if you cannot respect that then you should expect to move on or be moved on.

[InLove]

Salaam (I am still not sure of how to properly greet everyone here--I do not want to use a Muslim greeting if I am not supposed to.)

Anyway--
Peace to all here!

Even though this thread has had its troubles, it has been helpful to me. I am not sure how many of the participants are still here, or if this thread is still being read, but I am compelled to comment on a couple of ideas that were suggested here. I do this with all respect to the opinions and convictions of others, and it is not my intent to offend, but to offer some points that might be worthy of consideration.

The whole point of woman trying to be in control of herself is because by the nautral law given by God Almighty women are more capable to control their sexual drives than men.

I respectively submit that controlling one's sexual drive is an individual matter, not one that is gender-specific. Proving that men are generally more promiscuous than women might be difficult.

How many women have you ever seen sexually assaulting men in this world. It has always been men who have been physically interested in women.

I hope this doesn't sound too simplistic, but perhaps it is the differences in anatomy that contribute to the fact that women do not commit rape as often as men. But I don't think it is because they are any more or less virtuous than men. And men also rape men. But rape has nothing to do with physical attraction--it is an act of an unbalanced and/or evil mind.

How many muslim women would you find unsafe by some rapist in the street. It is only those women who do not dress up decently, or who tart up are the most vulnerable.

Many modestly dressed women (and men) have been the victims of rape. Rape is an evil, aggresive act that has nothing to do with sexual desire and everything to do with power, vengeance and/or oppression.

I would rather be clean, free of deseases, with dignity and pride in who I am as a Muslim woman, rather than being sexually exploited by socieites. It is the Western culture that promotes rape of a woman, not Islam.

I agree that Islam does not promote the rape of women. But it is unjust to say that Western culture does. I do not know of any western society that does not consider rape a crime. Perhaps you are referring to rape in a philosophical context, such as when any individual is exploited or oppressed in any way. I do find common ground with you in your preference to be clean and free of disease, to maintain your dignity and practice humility in life, and to dress modestly out of respect for God, one's own body, and other people. I believe women of many faiths and beliefs also share these ideals, from the East to the West around the world.

InPeace,
InLove

[Amica]

Hi/salaam!

Let me first say that I do not believe that western societies approve of rape and I know that it is considered a crime, but I think that women are sexually exploited more than in the islamic societies. A woman in the western image is big chested blond and anorexic in appearance at the same time. How many young girls and women dive into the eating disorders to feel wanted, accepted in western societies? I consider this mental rape.
Also, many women are raped in the west because they are portrayed as sexual objects rather than human beings.
Now, there are arabic speaking countries where women suffer in different ways too: acid attack, 'honor killing,' etc.
I believe any kind of attack anywhere around the world is a crime and has nothing to do with anyone's faith, but the way of culture.
I meant not to offend anyone and I apologize if I did. What I wanted to defend was the islamic stand in regards to women and men being modest and keeping morality as defined by our Holy Book.

[Amica]

Addition:

Muslims continue to debate the veil of women. There are thousands of Muslim women who do not wear burkha, a veil or not even hijab. There are thousands who do.
Muslim woman makes this option herself. Muslims believe that Muslim believers have different degree in their deen (faith practice, degree in faith). Those women who are able to cover themselves are admired for their modesty and are seen as leaders among the faithful women, examples of chastity and modesty. Many Muslim women strive for the strenght spiritually to do this, especially if a Muslim woman lives in dominantly non-islamic culture.

[InLove]

Salaam, Amica,

Peace to all here.

I want to thank you for your sensitive, candid, and honest response. I want so much to continue this conversation with you. If you don't mind, though, I want to take a little time--well, actually, I have a deadline I need to meet on a project to which I am obligated. I do not want to rush with my responses to you (and I have some questions that someone with your understanding might be able to answer). I look so forward to it.

In the meantime, I pray that peace will be kept here. Because you and I are working on that. I respect so much of what you say, and I hope others will do the same. If not, please understand that it is not me talking to you in that way.

InPeace,
InLove

[InLove]

Salaam, Amica,

Peace to you and all here. Let it be so.

A woman in the western image is big chested blond and anorexic in appearance at the same time. How many young girls and women dive into the eating disorders to feel wanted, accepted in western societies? I consider this mental rape.

I sure do understand what you mean, and there are many women here "in the West" who would agree with you. It is total nonsense, and unhealthy--not to mention unholy. But this is a picture and an idea on a television or a movie screen. Not real life--not for everyone. Dare I say, not for most?

I am concerned that I do not totally understand all the different factions and sects and beliefs of Islam. I am ignorant of them. If I am ignorant, I cannot possibly know how to speak. I am also concerned that, even though I am a Christian, I am ignorant of how all who claim to be Christians believe.

I do not know your location, but I believe that Muslims all over the world are suffering today because of the actions of a few who falsely claim to love Allah. I also believe that there are Christians suffering today all over the world because of those who falsely claim to love Christ. The suffering of the Jewish people is something I cannot explain, only honor, and remember, and learn from. It is not far removed from the rest.

I also remember and honor Hagar and Ishmael--God came to them in their distress, and from them came countless descendents, and a great nation. I truly believe that this is a prophecy even yet totally unfulfilled, even though many believe it already is done.

I realize that even if I tell you that I have read the Q'uran, you may say to me that I have not, because it only exists in Heaven, a place I can never see?

But in my heart is Love, and that is all I can go by. I wish you peace, and I hope that this conversation adds something to your life. I know it has in mine.

InLove,
InPeace

[InLove]

Dear Amica,

I also realize that your Scripture says that you cannot be a friend with an "unbeliever." You must believe what you must believe.

But at least we got to talk for a while. Maybe that counts for something.

InPeace,
InLove (an American woman)

[Amica]

In Love,
thank you for the kind words. You said that I won't believe that you read the Qur'an. I have no reason for it, because after all it has been given to the human kind to be read and thaught. The Book itself says that its teachings will be clear to some and may cause others to misunderstand it due to its complexity at times, I guess. God did say that the Qur'an is in the Heaven. It must be so if He says so. But the one we have is the only one on Earth, no?
InLove you also said that I cannot be friends with 'unbelievers.' The way I understand this command is: depends what you do in the friendship with an unbeliever. If the person is forcing me to deny my God and participate in those things that drive me away from my God, then perhaps I must not be friends with that person.
Unbelievers in the Qur'an are those who deny God, One True God. So it means, those who do not believe in Him, in His Oness, are unbelievers.
I do not know if you know, but Prophet Muhammad had relatives who were not Musilms. One of those was is his uncle who died as a pagan follower. Muhammad liked his uncle and the man liked him. They were in contact with each other. So, by befriending an unbeliever may not necessarily mean that one becomes an unbeliever.
After all, God Amighty in the Qur'an said that not everyone in the world is a believer, not everyone can be a believer, for God shows the right path to those He wants to show the path. The rest if He wants to, for some reason He knows, can't see the truth.
Also, Muslims believe that a believer/unbeliever is also shaped through the way their parants raised them, through the society/culture they grew up in.
I enjoy talking to you InLove. You seem like a nice, educated person. I also live in the U.S.
Peace.

[farhan]

Salam & peace to all !

I also realize that your Scripture says that you cannot be a friend with an "unbeliever." You must believe what you must believe.

Well this i guess is a problem with translations . The word used in that verse also means protecters or maintainers . So different people have translated the word differently . Does Islam forbids muslims from being friends with non-muslims ?? I dont think so . Non-muslims have helped muslims in some very important times . Like the uncle who was always with Prophet mohammed ( Peace be upon him ) named Abu Talib , was a non-muslim . At the time of first revelation Muhammad's wife ( Khadija ) took him to her relative who was a christian scholar named Warqa bin Naofal . Who was the first one to confirm his prophethood , & told Prophet Muhammad the the angel ( Gabriel ) is the same that God sent to Jesus & Moses ( Peace be upon them ) . Nijjashi was an Ethopian christian knig who gave muslims a place to live when they were forced to migrate from Makkah . And there R a lot more examples .

I realize that even if I tell you that I have read the Q'uran, you may say to me that I have not, because it only exists in Heaven, a place I can never see?

Well , since all Muslims read it , so thats the only Quran we have .And may be this Quran here is a copy of that on in heaven

Anyways , I noticed a question mark in the end of your sentence , Why???

[InLove]

Salaam, Amica and Farhan, and peace to all here!

Thank you both--I feel much better. I have wondered about that passage (from 5. The Table--"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends....") for a long time, and could not understand it, because it is evident to me that there are friendships between people of these different faiths all the time. But after your helpful replies, (and after re-reading the Sura) I can see how this might mean to guard one's self from being influenced by another's beliefs, and to remain in faith to Allah. Translating over centuries and between languages is difficult, at best.

Re: the question I asked about the Q'uran:

I realize that even if I tell you that I have read the Q'uran, you may say to me that I have not, because it only exists in Heaven, a place I can never see?

And both your replies:

From Amica:

thank you for the kind words. You said that I won't believe that you read the Qur'an. I have no reason for it, because after all it has been given to the human kind to be read and thaught. The Book itself says that its teachings will be clear to some and may cause others to misunderstand it due to its complexity at times, I guess. God did say that the Qur'an is in the Heaven. It must be so if He says so. But the one we have is the only one on Earth, no?

And from Farhan:

Well , since all Muslims read it , so thats the only Quran we have .And may be this Quran here is a copy of that on in heaven

Anyways , I noticed a question mark in the end of your sentence , Why???

I asked because I have read that interpretations into other languages other than Arabic are not considered acceptable to Muslims. For example:

From The Norton Anthology, World Masterpieces, Expanded Edition, Volume I:

Because the Koran is, literally, God's word and is, like Him, miraculous and eternal, it cannot be translated. Interpretive renderings into other languages have been made and used for teaching purposes since the earliest period of Islam, but Muslims do not accept them as the Koran in the sense that Christians accept the Bible in English or any of the other languages into which it has been translated, as still the Bible.

If this is really so, I really can understand why. There are some translations of the Bible that I do not consider authentic, either, and there are arguments over Biblical translations between Christians all the time.

The reason for the question mark was because I was asking a question, but I probably could have stated it better. I was asking how, if there is no translation of the Q'uran that Islam accepts, how could Islam expect me to learn, and therefore ever see Paradise. But you have already cleared that up for me.

InPeace,
InLove

[Amica]

Peace/hello!
I think that the nature of the agressive statements in the Qur'an towards the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) refers to the tribes who were siding with the pagans during the Muslim struggle for freedom of faith and religious practice in Muhammad's p.b.u.h. time. I think it is ridiculuous to use those statements to mean for all times.
When the Prophet p.b.u.h. and his companions defended themselves with the Holy Blessing of the Most High God as shown in the Qur'an, it meant that they were to fight anyone who attacks them because of the religion of God.
At times the People of the Book seem confused about certain statements that may show that some of them say, such as one verse (I do not know which one) where Jews are referred in the Qur'an as saying: "Elija is son of God" or something like that. Today when people read that, they take offense because of course many Jews today do not believe Elija to be a son of God. But what I think is happening is that the tribes that lived in Arabia at the time of the Revelation (Qur'an) some of them may have adopted some of the pagan traditions.
Prophet Muhammad's pbuh uncle was a pagan, but a good and caring man. His first wife's cousin or uncle (do not know which one) was a Christian. Also Prophet pbuh married some women of different faiths.
Prophet Muhammad stated that on the Judgement Day, only one group of Muslims, Jews and Christians will enter Heaven. And Qur'an says the same thing: that belieivng Jews, Sabians, Christians and Muslims will go to Heaven. Muslims, Sabians, Christians and Jews who sin greately will go to Hell as Qur'an states.
So, Islam does not teach Muslims to believe in their superiority among the other monotheists, but teaches them to worship Only One God and to be kind to those who believe in Him.