JW's, Sccientologists, Moonies.. when does a cult become a religion? - Page 15

Nick the Pilot · 12-30-2007, 03:32 AM

"...the atrocities that happen daily in the name of faith make the very notion of faith a price not worth paying."

--> A wise man once said that more trouble is caused in the world by organized religion than by all other causes combined.

That wise man was right.

Quahom1 · 12-30-2007, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Hi Q,

Firstly I know you have never called me damned, nor ever implied it either. Forgive me if my phrasing gave you the impression I thought you had. At least 2 others here have tho, indirectly of course hiding behind the curtain of "scripture".

I know you are a good guy Q, and as well as shoot you can take it on the chin. You are not afraid to hold back in expressing yourself and I have always respected that. But I hope you can get the idea that as much as you believe God exists, and that he is 'good' I do not. I spent most of my life open to the possibility, uncertain and always looking for evidence one way or the other. Now I have come down off the fence and on the side of atheism. I am not certain I am correct but believe that there is not a single shred of evidence to support any other point of view.... for me. And that if he does exist he is a petty, spiteful creature unworthy of any regard if it is in his power to end suffering and injustice. Further I believe that the cost to humanity of the God delusion is not worth the price humanity has to pay for it. I feel this strongly enough to state it as a belief as much as you state yours.

I never did a thing in my life for kudos or karma points. I do what I do because I love life. This love increased enormously with children and my sense of obligation to future generations has become my number one consideration in all I do. Thats what it is all about, or what it should be all about. Loving being alive, breathing in the incomprehensible beauty of the whole cosmos that allows us our little thoughts. And in driving ever forward for progress and allowing future generations to do the same.

End of the world'ers have given up. They threaten the future of our children. And it is all based on the loosest, crassest interpretations of old texts that were written by men not Gods. I find such a threat to be growing both in the US and in Islam and there are very few standing up and calling it what it is... bull****. And it is only by believing in a future that we can build one. If we allow the proliferation of Armageddon dogma's then they will drag us down. Be hijacked by the powerful and greedy to cause yet more suffering. I do not need God to exist to be either a good person nor happy with my lot. And I genuinely believe the world could be a much better place without the notion of God.

Of course many many people of faith do good deeds. Thats not what my point is. Only that the atrocities that happen daily in the name of faith make the very notion of faith a price not worth paying.

tao

Cyberpi, show me any proof.

tao

Sorry. You're a good guy too. I get a little emotional sometimes...I'll try to be more, stoic.

v/r

Q

Quahom1 · 12-30-2007, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

"...the atrocities that happen daily in the name of faith make the very notion of faith a price not worth paying."

--> A wise man once said that more trouble is caused in the world by organized religion than by all other causes combined.

That wise man was right.

Really...

cyberpi · 12-30-2007, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flowperson

You're being pretty unfair to Tao. At least he works proactively to help make the future be better than it appears to be becoming these days. As a nomadic engineer who moves around a lot, do you consult on the construction of coal-fired generating plants ...or something ?

Is that an invitation to humble myself, or to exalt myself? If it is the latter then I decline. Appears to be plenty of that here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao

Cyberpi, show me any proof.

Proof that I exist? That I have a soul? Come on over to the USA and work with me for a month.

greymare · 12-30-2007, 09:03 AM

no , not proof that you exist. proof that a god exists. I have said the same. just show me. Or are you saying that because YOU exist,god exists. Because that to me sounds a little "high and mighty" if youll pardon the pun.

Taosaur · 12-30-2007, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao

Further I believe that the cost to humanity of the God delusion is not worth the price humanity has to pay for it. I feel this strongly enough to state it as a belief as much as you state yours.

I could say the same from a moderately pro-religious, non-theist perspective. I see nothing wrong with the father-god concept as an individual's means of engaging the world, but on a global scale the impulse to evangelism, a.k.a. empire, has disastrous consequences. Coupled with end-times disregard for natural resources and a regard for life directly proportional to the odds of conversion, monotheism is clearly, for many of us, the GTTLOE--greatest threat to life on earth.

So while I respect you as human beings and will do everything in my power to preserve your life and freedom, don't expect me to hold your views sacrosanct, because they threaten the survival of everything I know and love.

cyberpi · 12-30-2007, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greymare

no , not proof that you exist. proof that a god exists. I have said the same. just show me. Or are you saying that because YOU exist,god exists. Because that to me sounds a little "high and mighty" if youll pardon the pun.

Then seek your own proof... go work for God.

greymare · 12-31-2007, 04:41 AM

oh I am seeking proof, dopey, thats why Im here. Your argument of "go work for god" is a little simplistic and honestly stupid.

Tao_Equus · 12-31-2007, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Proof that I exist? That I have a soul? Come on over to the USA and work with me for a month.

I have no doubt that you, whoever you may be, exist. As for a soul that I doubt. You have conciousness and people often confuse that with a soul but with brain death that will be gone and you will be a pile of cells awaiting recycling.

This notion you have of "working for God" you will have to elaborate on. Obviously to me it is a confused idea as I do not believe God exists and you can only at best work for a false assumption. But if good comes of it it is not so bad. But if "working for God" means going out and coercing, bullying, and ultimately lying to people in order to have them purchase some DVD's with a divine message on them then that's a whole other ball game. If you are trying to sell Armageddon to the vulnerable and poorly educated then it is reprehensible.
But I do not know Cyberpi. You seem to hint at a travelling engineer lifestyle but I know almost nothing about you save you like to argue. That's fine I do too. I see it as an important tool in the development of ideas. But, to my knowledge, you have failed to lay your cards on the table and say who you are and what you really do. It is easy to find out who I am, it is well stated over a number of threads. I have nothing to hide. So why dont you stop trying to be so mysterious and let us know exactly what it is that gives you your take on things.

Tao

Snoopy · 12-31-2007, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

As for a soul that I doubt.

Hey, I learnt a new word today. "Reify." Neat huh?

s.

Quahom1 · 12-31-2007, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Hey, I learnt a new word today. "Reify." Neat huh?

s.

Lol, now see if you can use it in everyday conversation...that aught to get you a raised eyebrow or two...

Snoopy · 12-31-2007, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Lol, now see if you can use it in everyday conversation...that aught to get you a raised eyebrow or two...

Are you kidding? I'm not even sure I can pronounce it!!

s.

Tao_Equus · 12-31-2007, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Hey, I learnt a new word today. "Reify." Neat huh?

s.

Nice word!! And I learned it today too... Thank You!!

Think its pronounced re-i-fy btw.

Tao

Snoopy · 12-31-2007, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Nice word!! And I learned it today too... Thank You!!

Think its pronounced re-i-fy btw.

Tao

Right then clever clogs

, reification too. I'll be looking out for it!

s.

cyberpi · 12-31-2007, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I have no doubt that you, whoever you may be, exist. As for a soul that I doubt. You have conciousness and people often confuse that with a soul but with brain death that will be gone and you will be a pile of cells awaiting recycling.

A brain is a tool. Is there a tool that is conscious of itself? Is there a tool that uses itself?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Obviously to me it is a confused idea as I do not believe God exists and you can only at best work for a false assumption.

You call false what you also claim to have never seen. Does science call theory false without proof? Does justice call someone false without evidence? You are neither scientific, nor just in your judgment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

But if good comes of it it is not so bad. But if "working for God" means going out and coercing, bullying, and ultimately lying to people in order to have them purchase some DVD's with a divine message on them then that's a whole other ball game.

Am I coercing, bullying, or lying to you? Selling DVD's? How many non-fiction DVD's are in your collection?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

But I do not know Cyberpi.

Yet you have no doubt that I exist as the product of a sperm and an egg. You have the audacity to call me a brain, as if embedded in a gene sequence and educated by society... then admit that you do not know me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I see it as an important tool in the development of ideas.

You call a tool important. I call him that uses a tool important.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

But, to my knowledge, you have failed to lay your cards on the table and say who you are and what you really do.

So you claim that it is my failure that you don't know something. Then it is your failure if I don't know something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

So why dont you stop trying to be so mysterious and let us know exactly what it is that gives you your take on things.

Giving what I take.