JW's, Sccientologists, Moonies.. when does a cult become a religion?

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

2 Yes, as soon as you join it and have a faith it is then a cult....

Hey what did I say? I said there were two meanings of the word "cult." The neutral meaning: all religions are cults. The negative meaning: a religion involving mind control. I was referring to the negative meaning when I started talking about enforced conformity.

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

3 But, but, but, you're not meant to think for yourself, simply follow the rules and guidelines of god and christ and off to paradise you go. They do the thinking, that's why they're in the top seats and you're in the cheap seats.

Who says I'm not allowed to be flexible in how I use my mind? These guys are trying to define and monopolise my own faith. Yeah call me a rebel. Call me an anarchist. You shouldn't be listening to those guys. I think they're starting to exert too control over your spiritual life. You can't let them possess you. You're one of God's creations. A child of God. Don't give your soul to that . . . organisation.

Be on your guard. The Establishment has eyes and ears everywhere. Anyone you meet could secretly be one of those people. Remember that your soul belongs to God and God alone. Keep your hands clean of the Establishment.

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Now, If I set my faith seriously into 'November 17' and my posters warning, which is a warning from god.... I now have a valid religion.. Even if there are but a few memebers or a million memebers and at the same time it is a CULT!

Once again, by the neutral meaning, all religions are cults.

But . . . if we use the negative meaning, your "religion" doesn't go far enough.

Moreover, according to Bob's definition, your "movement" isn't even a religion yet. You need to die first. Kill yourself now if you want to have a legacy. You need to become a legend like Jesus. Then convince people (by resurrecting, or even faking your death) . . . that somehow . . . you're still alive!!!! Back from the dead.

Why your movement doesn't go far enough to be a cult (negative meaning):

1) No mind control. I don't feel controlled by you. You need to find ways to pound us into submission so we will do your will and bidding.

2) You need to indoctrinate us. What cause do we live for? How do we increase our power? What are our daily tasks? What are the reasons why we do things the way we do? Corporate values?

3) Slogans. Get a list of these. This will get us thinking we're doing this for a real purpose.

4) The Enemy. Who are we fighting? What's the conspiracy? How can we defeat the enemy? By arms?

5) Tools and Resources. Where do we get the power we need to knock down the enemy? Hard.

6) Philosophy. What makes us the smart, resourceful guys? We've gotta get wise and cunning. If we must deceive, so be it. Choose the lesser of two evils. We have to be vindictive and use guile because it's not the same as lying. We're actually doing it for a purpose. Deception and guile. Mwhahahahaha (supposed to be a textual expression of an evil laugh).

7) Propaganda. Are we succeeding? Making progress? How do we assess our own performance? How do we improve? Why are we succeeding? Who is holding us back? Scapegoat? Who to blame?

8) Build your Army. Human beings are tools and instruments to be used. Get them where you can find them. Seek out your acolytes. What weapons do we use?

9) Conformity. Crucial element. You need to convince us that the world depends on our success -- that we have to stay true to what we believe.

10) Code of Honour. Why are we better than everyone else? Lol.

11) It's something worth dying for.

Start writing your first manual now. Entitled . . . What's going to happen on November 17.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Hey what did I say? I said there were two meanings of the word "cult." The neutral meaning: all religions are cults. The negative meaning: a religion involving mind control. I was referring to the negative meaning when I started talking about enforced conformity.

I knows! I just cannot see it meaning anything else negative, positive, neutral... I still see it just saying religion.... :\

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Moreover, according to Bob's definition, your "movement" isn't even a religion yet. You need to die first. Kill yourself now if you want to have a legacy. You need to become a legend like Jesus. Then convince people (by resurrecting, or even faking your death) . . . that somehow . . . you're still alive!!!! Back from the dead.

It is a religion thank you very much!!!! christ died ;\ went up to heaven... uhm blah blah blah.... They get upset aboot how life is going... Down here.... And send a messenger... Me...

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

1) No mind control. I don't feel controlled by you. You need to find ways to pound us into submission so we will do your will and bidding.

Put my mind to it I can manipulate any.... And specially if there is some kind of "spiritual" craving going on with the victi.... Follower... *clears throat*

2) You need to indoctrinate us. What cause do we live for? How do we increase our power? What are our daily tasks? What are the reasons why we do things the way we do? Corporate values?

Again, I will simply pick and choose bits from the bible... And then with my own zaney creativity make up the rest.... But I'll believe it

3) Slogans. Get a list of these. This will get us thinking we're doing this for a real purpose.

Does a religion really need a slogan? lol What is the slogan for islam? Or christianity?

4) The Enemy. Who are we fighting? What's the conspiracy? How can we defeat the enemy? By arms?

Any that oppose (just like the norm there really.... Can't convert um, crush um.)

5) Tools and Resources. Where do we get the power we need to knock down the enemy? Hard.

Bombs are simple things to make...... ¬.¬

6) Philosophy. What makes us the smart, resourceful guys? We've gotta get wise and cunning. If we must deceive, so be it. Choose the lesser of two evils. We have to be vindictive and use guile because it's not the same as lying. We're actually doing it for a purpose. Deception and guile. Mwhahahahaha (supposed to be a textual expression of an evil laugh).

Again lol, a religion can be as thick as a pile of horse dung... Or can be like Steven freaking Hawkins... Neither of the ends of the scale eliminate that faction from being a religion. Just some be smarter than others....

7) Propaganda. Are we succeeding? Making progress? How do we assess our own performance? How do we improve? Why are we succeeding? Who is holding us back? Scapegoat? Who to blame?

See you're now going more into how to make/plan a cult than more what defines a cult from a religion... :\ but since you ask I'll endulge you... The scape goat is mankind... Mankind is also to blame that is why we would go run away and live in an isolate Family estate... A farm with 20 acres of land... Live off that.


8) Build your Army. Human beings are tools and instruments to be used. Get them where you can find them. Seek out your acolytes. What weapons do we use?

Some say words some say actions... I say, both

9) Conformity. Crucial element. You need to convince us that the world depends on our success -- that we have to stay true to what we believe.

Oh no!! The world will be destroyed! You saw the freaking picture! We will actually be placed in a nice paradise in Jupiter.... Yes, the planet Jupiter... Under those heavy dangerous looking gas storms and such (which are there to trick you by the way) is a hidden paradise where those that heed the words of the messenger 17 will live for eternity... You see sin.... Sin is an illness... It is in the air! Air in Jupiter be clean... And there is nothing to kill you there.... Proven fact...

10) Code of Honour. Why are we better than everyone else? Lol.

Because I am the messenger of the divine... He, sent me forth to -you-.

11) It's something worth dying for.
Well, naturally..... After the ritual orgy you then take the ritual oath and ritual drink, to get on the "ritual plane" that takes you up up and away...

Start writing your first manual now. Entitled . . . What's going to happen on November 17.

Nov 17th is when this started we have 17 years from that day on to prepare...

[mee]

Originally Posted by wil

Seems to me it isn't the Cult members that isolate but the teachings of the cult that isolate. I've known many a Witness in my life, and as I contemplate and recall, each and every one had an estranged relationship with one or more of their family members due to the fact that they verbalized like you post. Whether other family members were Baptist, Lutheran, Atheist Buddhist or Agnostic, the constant berating for being wrong, constant quoting of scripture and indication that they were pagans for participating in Halloween, Easter or Christmas celebrations created riffs that kept folks from wanting to visit, go to dinner, cousins seeing each other etc.

If you have a great relationship with all your kin and co workers you'd be the first for me to know that didn't have issues. Frankly I strive not to be judgmental or prejudice, but I've learned here when I see your posts/responses to wait for a few more as I already know what I am going to read if yours is the first, and I do need a more varied diet.

lol, I imagine there are many who see my name and think the same.

you are quite right to say that the teachings of the bible and sticking to bible teachings does make other people in opposition to those teachings that is why Jehovahs witnesses have great opposition. but did not Jesus himself say that would happen . so it is no big surprise to his followers. i have family members who are not witnesses and we do get along nicely, the only reason i am talking about the kingdom so much on this forum is because it is a religious forum , and it gives me the chance to talk about something that is close to my heart. Are people saying that i should not speak about my beliefs on a religious forum i talk about the promises in the bible , that is not telling people they are wrong they have to make their own choices as to what is right and what is wrong . maybe it is the truth of the bible that concerns some people ,but thats not my fault. bible prophecy is now well along and Gods timetable is getting ever closer . i would say that now is not the time to dismiss bible prophecy. but many who call themselves christians do just that.

[bob x]

Are people saying that i should not speak about my beliefs on a religious forum

We would rather hear from you than just echoes of what others have told you.

[mee]

Originally Posted by bob x

We would rather hear from you than just echoes of what others have told you.

what the bible teaches me is what i am all about


What does Jehovah teach those who are willing to be taught by him? First of all: “I am Jehovah. That is my name.” Also that “Jehovah is in truth God. He is the living God and the King to time indefinite.” Jehovah further teaches us what his purposes are. His transcendent purpose regarding himself is to vindicate his name by clearing it of reproach, so “that people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.”—Isa. 42:8; Jer. 10:10; Ps. 83:18. ..........yes that is what i am all about i am taught by the most high

[bob x]

what the bible teaches me is what i am all about

That's what we thought, sigh... You are Borg, I will not be assimilated.

[greymare]

at least hes not a darlek

[17th Angel]

I am seriously going to make this "movement" I will plug it in various places and give you feed back on it... After about a month or two I will disband it and let the people know that I was just jackassing around..... I have made a few more posters gonna place them over the net here and there.. This is my fave....

[wil]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

I am seriously going to make this "movement" I will plug it in various places and give you feed back on it... After about a month or two I will disband it and let the people know that I was just jackassing around..... I have made a few more posters gonna place them over the net here and there.. This is my fave....

Why, why disband it? You got to other choices, stay tongue in cheek like pastafarians and roll with it. Or go serious and create the L. Ron 17th phenomena.

[17th Angel]

I can't go too serious lol.... I said at the start that one of the many tests is to cast away all your material possessions and come and live on my family estate farm and live off the land! I don't have the balls to do that lol........

Also I'd have to change this my main advert.... I am bringing the message that the world is to end... And we shall live on the Planet Jupiter... Well.. When it gets to the time I said it would all end and happen... If it doesn't I'll have to make a suicide pack with the group lol or turn around and say... You know guys.... Funny story, gonna love it... The past ten years... I have been bull****ting you all the way.....

[wil]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

said at the start that one of the many tests is to cast away all your material possessions and come and live on my family estate farm and live off the land! I don't have the balls to do that lol.......

. I am bringing the message that the world is to end... And we shall live on the Planet Jupiter...

duh, to salient pints you missed in the start your own religion manual brah

1. THEY cast away their possessions to YOU, the church and THEY live off the land whilst YOU and yours drive Bentleys

2. When the date comes you change the rules, deny, or reinterpret, and oust anyone who claims you did.

[mee]

Originally Posted by bob x

That's what we thought, sigh... You are Borg, I will not be assimilated.

Besides history, the Bible contains an abundance of wise sayings and counsel. but then it would because it is from God .
the message is that of Jehovah God.

By means of his spirit, Jehovah God also saw to it that what was recorded suited his purpose, providing essential instruction for those desiring to be and to remain his approved servants.

All the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.” (Rom. 15:4)

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by wil

duh, to salient pints you missed in the start your own religion manual brah

1. THEY cast away their possessions to YOU, the church and THEY live off the land whilst YOU and yours drive Bentleys

2. When the date comes you change the rules, deny, or reinterpret, and oust anyone who claims you did.

1. Oh aye, But I still live on the estate with them, they need the messages that god has passed upon me. Also I need to teach them of the right way to live.... And I am to be the 'lead' in our rituals...

2. lol, your suggesting that I whack my members off? It is meant to be of love ;\ Here is a few of the rules/tests... lol.

[greymare]

youve put a lot of thought int;o this 17th. what will you really do with all y;our disciples. you know, you will have them,

[Tao_Equus]

Sorry 17th but the name is already taken. The Greek anti-american 'terrorist' organisation, November 17th, dekaefta Noemvr or 17N beat you to it in 1973. I think they gona sue you under international copyright law any day now

Tao

Revolutionary Organization 17 November - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia