JW's, Sccientologists, Moonies.. when does a cult become a religion?

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Sorry 17th but the name is already taken. The Greek anti-american 'terrorist' organisation, November 17th, dekaefta Noemvr or 17N beat you to it in 1973. I think they gona sue you under international copyright law any day now

Tao

You do not see any.... "connections" in this?...... *insert smirk*

--edit--
lol! *covers his avartar....*

[Francis king]

a cult will never be a religion... lets forget about the etymology(?) of the words for a moment, let's think about positive and negative...

a religion, whether u agree with it or not, does ppl, as individuals, and as societies, some good. If it does not, then it is a cult.

there are a few key cult behaviours, and if an organisation you are involved in behaves in these ways then you might be in a cult.

look for these signs:

"extreme institutionalisation"- batch living/group living, being given new names, wearing standard "uniforms", oppressive/contricting/unusual rules and regulations, the enforcement of such resulting in severe/unusual punishments, members fear being excommunicated/thrown out of community as they no longer have possessions or a social network to fall back on...

"guru worship"- members behave differently around guru, members believe in the infalliability of guru, members report feeling different around guru, members tolerate guru even when guru belittles/patronises/uses aggression/behaves inappropriately with women/children/other participants, members believe in the infalliability of their guru's doctrine/insights, etc, to the exclusion of what is the general consensus concerning such matters,

"social isolation"- members are encouraged to socialise soley with other members, members are advised not to participate in their usual "normal" hobbies and pursuits, members are encouraged to behave inappropriately/in ways at odds with their class/cultural backgrounds, members are encouraged to actively recruit other members, members are not encouraged to visit doctors/health professionals and instead rely on alternative treatments/practises, members are encouraged to marry/reproduce soley with members of the group, members are not encouraged to manage their own finances, members are not encouraged to acquire/maintain their own material possessions,

"mind control"- all the above, plus: sleep deprivation, insufficient nutrients/unusual diets, intense periods of prayer or meditation which members cannot be excused from even if ill or troubled, periods of prayer or meditation or study which are unscheduled and regularly last for longer than 24 hours...

..unfortunately, many "religious" organisations behave in this way, and some cults do not.

but... to bring things back to your title... by my reckoning, the JW's are a cult... they practise some features of "social isolation"- but they're not giving ppl Kool-Aid and phenylbarbitone, like Jim Jones did in Guyana. But, well, being involved with them might kill you, inadvertently...scientologists- they score quite highly, although u won't die u will become light of pocket... the moonies also score quite highly, yet the worst u might suffer here is being laughed at and being forced into marrying a very ugly partner...

my local catholic church has none of these things! result! I can come and go as I please, nobody really minds, I am free to drink beer, smoke fags, and still be acceptable in the eyes of God. Sure, they want me to put some bread in the bread bag every week, but its only loose change, it's not like they want me to go flirty fishing for jeebus and charge... because there's so many of us (sure I'm a buddhist, but once a catholic always a catholic...ha!) we don't mind if you want to be in the gang or not- there's plenty of catholics to go round, and one more, one less, no big deal. There's not a big push to buy catholic music, or catholic books, and jesus don't mind if u listen to gangsta rap so long as you give a coat to the man without and give ur seat up for the old 'uns on the bus...

cults: hard work, no reward.. real spirituality: no work, big rewards.. I know what I'd choose..

[mee]

[quote=Francis king;129964]

but... to bring things back to your title... by my reckoning, the JW's are a cult... they practise some features of "social isolation"-quote]


i mix with all kinds of people now that i am a Jehovahs witness, before i was a Jehovahs witness i kept to only those that suited me . but now i have widened out . so i dont think what you say fits my experence at all .

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

You do not see any.... "connections" in this?...... *insert smirk*

--edit--
lol! *covers his avartar....*

Lmao...soz for skimnming and being slow

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Francis king

a cult will never be a religion... lets forget about the etymology(?) of the words for a moment, let's think about positive and negative...

a religion, whether u agree with it or not, does ppl, as individuals, and as societies, some good. If it does not, then it is a cult.

there are a few key cult behaviours, and if an organisation you are involved in behaves in these ways then you might be in a cult.

look for these signs:

"extreme institutionalisation"- batch living/group living, being given new names, wearing standard "uniforms", oppressive/contricting/unusual rules and regulations, the enforcement of such resulting in severe/unusual punishments, members fear being excommunicated/thrown out of community as they no longer have possessions or a social network to fall back on...

"guru worship"- members behave differently around guru, members believe in the infalliability of guru, members report feeling different around guru, members tolerate guru even when guru belittles/patronises/uses aggression/behaves inappropriately with women/children/other participants, members believe in the infalliability of their guru's doctrine/insights, etc, to the exclusion of what is the general consensus concerning such matters,

"social isolation"- members are encouraged to socialise soley with other members, members are advised not to participate in their usual "normal" hobbies and pursuits, members are encouraged to behave inappropriately/in ways at odds with their class/cultural backgrounds, members are encouraged to actively recruit other members, members are not encouraged to visit doctors/health professionals and instead rely on alternative treatments/practises, members are encouraged to marry/reproduce soley with members of the group, members are not encouraged to manage their own finances, members are not encouraged to acquire/maintain their own material possessions,

"mind control"- all the above, plus: sleep deprivation, insufficient nutrients/unusual diets, intense periods of prayer or meditation which members cannot be excused from even if ill or troubled, periods of prayer or meditation or study which are unscheduled and regularly last for longer than 24 hours...

..unfortunately, many "religious" organisations behave in this way, and some cults do not.

but... to bring things back to your title... by my reckoning, the JW's are a cult... they practise some features of "social isolation"- but they're not giving ppl Kool-Aid and phenylbarbitone, like Jim Jones did in Guyana. But, well, being involved with them might kill you, inadvertently...scientologists- they score quite highly, although u won't die u will become light of pocket... the moonies also score quite highly, yet the worst u might suffer here is being laughed at and being forced into marrying a very ugly partner...

my local catholic church has none of these things! result! I can come and go as I please, nobody really minds, I am free to drink beer, smoke fags, and still be acceptable in the eyes of God. Sure, they want me to put some bread in the bread bag every week, but its only loose change, it's not like they want me to go flirty fishing for jeebus and charge... because there's so many of us (sure I'm a buddhist, but once a catholic always a catholic...ha!) we don't mind if you want to be in the gang or not- there's plenty of catholics to go round, and one more, one less, no big deal. There's not a big push to buy catholic music, or catholic books, and jesus don't mind if u listen to gangsta rap so long as you give a coat to the man without and give ur seat up for the old 'uns on the bus...

cults: hard work, no reward.. real spirituality: no work, big rewards.. I know what I'd choose..

OMG!!! I love your mind!! Not just here....but so often... post more!!!

[Tao_Equus]

[quote=mee;129973]

Originally Posted by Francis king

but... to bring things back to your title... by my reckoning, the JW's are a cult... they practise some features of "social isolation"-quote]


i mix with all kinds of people now that i am a Jehovahs witness, before i was a Jehovahs witness i kept to only those that suited me . but now i have widened out . so i dont think what you say fits my experence at all .

You mix with all types or all types of JW? My opinion is if only you would all take some E you might at least have a religion with some historical validation.

[Francis king]

well mee, maybe that it not your experience, and I am glad of that...

[mee]

Originally Posted by Francis king

well mee, maybe that it not your experience, and I am glad of that...

i like to put the other side across rather than always hearing from x Jehovahs witnesses. i think that is the problem, people listen to the opposers more than those who are happy being witnesses . and it is the opposers that influence others to have wrong thoughts about Jehovahs witnesses.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by mee

i like to put the other side across rather than always hearing from x Jehovahs witnesses. i think that is the problem, people listen to the opposers more than those who are happy being witnesses . and it is the opposers that influence others to have wrong thoughts about Jehovahs witnesses.

All JW's i have had occasion to meet have approached my threshold with only the best of intentions. But it is not the intention that offends me. Indeed i find that noble and courageous given the hostility shown toward your religion. What offends me is not the intention...but the message. I dislike the bible as a mindset, even more so the perversion of the bible the JW's use. I do not not have wrong thoughts about JW's. rather they are arrogant to assume i have not considered their logic. But they are not taught nor prepared for logic....so I feel pity. And pity, like charity, is not always welcome. Sometimes lifes journey feels so short and fast.....with JW's it is long and tedious. Thats my best way to describe my pity for all those captured by such an implausible fiction.

Tao

[mee]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

All JW's i have had occasion to meet have approached my threshold with only the best of intentions.

yes i agree with that one , that is very true indeed . love of God and neighbour is what it is all about.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Francis king

a cult will never be a religion... lets forget about the etymology(?) of the words for a moment, let's think about positive and negative...

my local catholic church has none of these things! result! I can come and go as I please, nobody really minds, I am free to drink beer, smoke fags, and still be acceptable in the eyes of God. Sure, they want me to put some bread in the bread bag every week, but its only loose change, it's not like they want me to go flirty fishing for jeebus and charge... because there's so many of us (sure I'm a buddhist, but once a catholic always a catholic...ha!) we don't mind if you want to be in the gang or not- there's plenty of catholics to go round, and one more, one less, no big deal. There's not a big push to buy catholic music, or catholic books, and jesus don't mind if u listen to gangsta rap so long as you give a coat to the man without and give ur seat up for the old 'uns on the bus...

I've got a co worker, raised Catholic, his wife is Episcopalian, he was married Episcopalian, his kid baptized Episcopalian. His parents, brothers and sisters are on him at every family reunion about getting married in the eyes of G!d instead of living in sin, and getting his kid salvation by christening in a Catholic church and getting him into catechism. They are concerned for his soul. All pretty scary to me.

[mee]

[quote=Tao_Equus;129984]

Originally Posted by mee

You mix with all types or all types of JW?

both , the fact that we GO out to speak to all people means that i mix more now than i ever did before i was a witness.even those who at one time i would not have desired to mix with . but just as Jehovah is not partial so a christian should not be partial. but as a follower of christ i always remember what my focus is .THE KINGDOM

It is because of the witnesses close adherence to Bible teachings that the veneration and idolization of human leaders so characteristic of cults today is not to be found among Jehovah’s Witnesses. They reject the concept of a clergy-laity distinction. The Encyclopedia of Religion aptly states about Jehovah’s Witnesses: “A clergy class and distinctive titles are prohibited.”

They follow Jesus Christ as their Leader and as Head of the Christian congregation. It was Jesus who said: “Do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers. Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for your Leader is one, the Christ.”—Matthew 23:8-12.

It is clear that Jehovah’s Witnesses are as far from being a cult as Jesus was from being a glutton and a drunkard

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by mee

Jesus was a glutton and a drunkard

You liar! Stone him!

[mee]

[quote=mee;


It is clear that Jehovah’s Witnesses are as far from being a cult as Jesus was from being a glutton and a drunkard[/quote]




now thats more like it , the truth is always better than reading things that put over half truths . it just goes to show how taking words out of a few words can change the whole meaning . the same thing happens when Gods name is taken out of the bible translations . thats why Jehovahs witnesses have put Gods name right back where it rightly belongs in the first place , its always better to read accurate things rather than lies or half truths . would you not agree ?

[Francis king]

jesus did like a bevvy, though, it says so in the bible... I can't imagine he was a glutton though, unless he was feasting on the bread of life..