Kabbalah as a means of true spirituality

[human1111]

Hi everyone!

I am very interested in higher things, I have read many philosophies and I was not satisfied with them. I have came across this site that teaches Kabbalah based on Rabbi Ashlag (Baal Sulam) method.

It answers questions such as:
"Who am I and for what purpose do I exist? How did we appear here and where are we going? Is it possible that we have already been in this world before? Can we know ourselves and the universe? Why does man suffer and is it possible to avoid suffering? How can one find peace, satisfaction, and luck? How can we attain tranquility, fulfillment, and happiness? "

http://www.kabbalah.info
What do you all think? It is a big site, but very interesting... It is free and it has a huge media archive that has 1000s of audio/video and free online books.

www.kabbalahmedia.com

What do you think?

[dauer]

Welcome to the site human.

I think there's a lot of good and useful information in many philosophies, but the thing that bothers me about a universalist kabbalah is that it was never meant to be "just a philosophy." I'm not exactly sure how the site pitches it, but there is so much that should be happening in the world of action and usually this is understood through the mitzvot, the commandments, which allow us to reveal the hidden sparks. What happens to kabbalah when you remove the mitzvot? It's like a balloon whose string is tied to a rock. If the rock is removed, the balloon floats away.

Now that I've said that I encourage you to follow your bliss and find the path that's right for you. And avoid the Kabbalah Centers. They're just out to get your money and teach whatever they feel like teaching.

Dauer

[human1111]

Originally Posted by dauer

Welcome to the site human.

I think there's a lot of good and useful information in many philosophies, but the thing that bothers me about a universalist kabbalah is that it was never meant to be "just a philosophy." I'm not exactly sure how the site pitches it, but there is so much that should be happening in the world of action and usually this is understood through the mitzvot, the commandments, which allow us to reveal the hidden sparks. What happens to kabbalah when you remove the mitzvot? It's like a balloon whose string is tied to a rock. If the rock is removed, the balloon floats away.

Now that I've said that I encourage you to follow your bliss and find the path that's right for you. And avoid the Kabbalah Centers. They're just out to get your money and teach whatever they feel like teaching.

Dauer

Thank you!

Good comments. I dislike Rav Bergs commercializing of the Kabbalah, that is why I avoid what he says because to me it sounds like he is selling "the truth". I beleive that truth should be free and available to everyone, that is why I like this particular kabbalah site. (All the books and many materials are available for free, etc).

From what I have read Kabbalah is 100% practical, which means that a person will be able to personally verify everything that is said in due time.

Thank you for your warm welcome!

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by human1111

From what I have read Kabbalah is 100% practical, which means that a person will be able to personally verify everything that is said in due time.

That is a rather remarkable statement to make.

In more down-to-earth terms - and without the "sales and marketing" gloss if can be avoided - what is Kabbalah actually about, and how does it exist a) outside of Judaism, and b) From the mystical traditions outside of Judaism that claim use of Kabbalah (Yesod, et al)?

[BluejayWay]

Knowing very little about Judaism and even less about Kabbalah, I would still like to offer this audio link to a recent National Public Radio program, an interview with Arthur Green, dean of the rabbinical school of Hebrew College and author of Guide to the Zohar. It's an interesting listen.

[dauer]

Originally Posted by BluejayWay

Knowing very little about Judaism and even less about Kabbalah, I would still like to offer this audio link to a recent National Public Radio program, an interview with Arthur Green, dean of the rabbinical school of Hebrew College and author of Guide to the Zohar. It's an interesting listen.

W00t!

Pardon my outburst. I go to HC and although I've never met Arthur Green, my old rabbi suggested I start checking out some of his books from the school library to see a less traditional approach to Chassidut. I will have to listen to that later. He seems like a very cool guy. He was also the dean, I think, at the Reconstructionist Seminary.

Dauer

[bananabrain]

i'm familiar with bnei-baruch, but i really wouldn't describe them as universalist. it's rav michael laitman, ain't it? i'd say he's more of a universalist within a jewish framework - and a fairly right-wing one at that. however, it's all pretty kosher as far as i can tell.

From what I have read Kabbalah is 100% practical, which means that a person will be able to personally verify everything that is said in due time.

well, i've heard berg say that, but that doesn't fill me with confidence, particularly as he seems more focused on the practical consequences for his bank account than anything else. i don't think real kabbalists would mean the same thing by the phrase "100% practical" - basically, in the sense that prayer is 100% practical; it will do what it does, but it's not going to make you taller, prettier, thinner or richer, if that's what you're doing it for. what people don't seem to understand is that kabbalah is actually really fecking *hardcore* - once you become aware of the mystical dimension there are 100% practical *consequences* - in other words, you become aware of how your actions *really* affect the universe and, let me tell you, it is more than a little scary. in a way, what the kabbalah does is enable us to shoulder the real weight of responsibility that falls to us as jews and as human beings. it's not some ersatz fluffy-bunny new-age let's-all-hug-each-other judaism-without-judaism crap. it is a serious spiritual discipline and the benefits (rather like yoga or qigong) are most available to those who are working daily with the techniques and frameworks.

what is Kabbalah actually about, and how does it exist a) outside of Judaism, and b) From the mystical traditions outside of Judaism that claim use of Kabbalah (Yesod, et al)?

i would say that you should take a look at http://www.ecauldron.com/kabbalah.php which is a pretty good introduction to those questions.

and yes, i believe arthur green is pretty darn cool...


b'shalom

bananabrain

[I, Brian]

Thanks for the link, BB - looks interesting for general info on Kabbalah. I actually thought kabbalah.info might be connected with Madonna's Kabbalah group - the original post seemed to have something of marketing about it, so I was curious how the "marketing" version related to the "mystical" version. Sounds like you're saying they're still pretty close, but one has a better organised sales team?

[bananabrain]

the original post seemed to have something of marketing about it

i think that's the post rather than the site itself. from what i know about the people involved with that site, they're not likely to go out touting for business on web fora.

I was curious how the "marketing" version related to the "mystical" version.

er. well, while i'd say kabbalah.info/bnei-baruch are well-organised, well-funded and not averse to donations, they are not a commercial group masquerading as a religious self-help group, whereas berg's kabbalah centre is more or less a commercial venture using religion as its channel with a minor amount of feel-good new age content, which is why it is interested in everyone, not just jews (why restrict your market?) whereas bnei-baruch and inner.org are just interested in jews, albeit all jews, in an outreach kind of way, not just the like-minded, who wouldn't touch the internet with a ten-foot pole. their content is fairly deep and fairly robust.

sounds like you're saying they're still pretty close, but one has a better organised sales team?

i think what may be confusing the issue is that both groups claim to be teaching according to rav yehuda ashlag, the "ba'al sulam", who was a major C20th kabbalist. i seem to remember that what happened was that rav ashlag (who is, in most people's opinion, pretty authoritative - and that includes me, now i've read some of his stuff, it's bloody great) passed his tradition to his son r. baruch ashlag, hence "bnei-baruch", the sons of baruch. the argument is that while "rav" berg of the KC did at one point study with baruch, he subsequently (ie after he died) claimed that he had been mekubal from that and was therefore the "true heir" of the ashlag tradition, whereas rav laitman (and, i believe, rav ginsberg of inner.org) who also *studied* with baruch ashlag contend that *they* are the inheritors of the mantle of the ba'al sulam. clear as mud? i can see, having read some of his stuff, why the KC could try and claim that they were passing on his teachings, but imho they're completely distorting them - i can't see how teaching non-jews, celeb marketing and pushy salesmanship have anything to do with the BS's message, which as far as i can see was something like "everyone (ie all jews) ought to study the public kabbalah nowadays, particularly if talmud is too difficult for them". he distinguishes between the sort of kabbalah that most people can understand and the really hard stuff, which stays secret and requires a high level of Torah knowledge.

who inherits a kabbalistic tradition through kabbalah - ie the oral transmission of the secret tradition of an acknowledged master is a really big issue. this is why we speak of "schools" - it's rather like martial arts in that way.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[dauer]

BB,

That whole affair sounds like the stuff that went down about who got to be the Besht's heir.

dauer

[I, Brian]

Thanks for the background - much appreciated.

[Sacredstar]

Dear Brian

I would say its a bit more then a sales team here is an article from the Observer

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magaz...371787,00.html

being love

Sacredstar

[bananabrain]

That whole affair sounds like the stuff that went down about who got to be the Besht's heir.

oh yeah - except you didn't find the early hasidic masters focused on money. the mitnagdim used the disorganisation for ammunition, though.

b'shalom

bananabrain