Knowledge of Good and Evil

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards!

Dammit Jim, I'm a philosopher, not a physicist!

Originally Posted by cyberpi

This world is kept blind to it, but every moment and particle of history is being precisely kept in a fashion that people can not see. Far better than any memory, the exact state of all matter and light at every moment of interaction has been kept.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Who is 'WE'... are you counting God? What is there to solve: Quantum entanglement?

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I suggest that all of the miracles in the Bible occured within the rule that energy be used and that a physical record was kept; however, the control loops are partly metaphysical. If a measurement is physical coming in through a person's physical senses then my answer is NO: there is no method of physical measurement that does not use energy and correspondingly leave a record.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Sound powered phone comes to mind. The listener does nothing, but when a person speaks into one end, the receiver can measure the the volume and quality of the signal, without exherting energy back.

Passive sonar is another one. No energy exherted yet the signal recieved is measured.

A glider or a bird caught in a thermal cline is another one. They both rise with the energy of the heat, yet exhert no energy of their own, yet the measure of the heat is made by the rise of the body.

Finally, the simple light vane (the lightbulb looking thing with spinning black and white squares balance on an axis?). It has no energy of its own, yet measures quite accurately, the energy of light bathing it.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Every single form of measurement consumes energy and correspondingly leaves evidence in the Universe that perfectly records every aspect of the event... including the examples you provide.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only changed or converted. There is never a loss of energy in the universe, nor is there a gain of energy in the universe. "Law of conservation of energy"

OK, this is what I see. FWIW. Conservation of energy as we know it implies energy is neither created nor destroyed, true. I don't think cyberpi was implying that energy was being "consumed" in the sense of being destroyed, rather in being converted. I have considered the subject of miracles from time to time, and I don't think G-d would break, or even seriously bend, His own rules. Therefore, miracles must take place within the confines of given natural / universal laws. *(that doesn't mean I can explain all of them)* Even so, for G-d to know and / or "recall" our individual pasts (as at the Great White Throne Judgement) then some form or type of record must be kept. Symbolically, this is the Book of Judgement that no man can open the seal, only the Lamb of G-d. It makes sense to me, in a philosophical manner, that this "record" would not be something readily viewed by human eyes. Yet some record (whether this or some other) must exist for G-d to fairly and rightly judge among all people. If this record were some quantum entanglement / spooky action at a distance / web of life sort of thing, it would seem to make sense, to me anyway. Cyberpi is not alone in his thinking in this regard.

But I still fail to see how this ties G-d's laws (i.e.: the Ten Commandments as example) to natural / universal laws (i.e.: gravity, atrophy / entropy, survival, conservation of energy, balance, etc.). Thou shalt not murder is a Law of G-d, and rightly and morally it should be observed. But it is broken rather frequently. By contrast, the law of gravity is pretty tough to break.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Sounds like I pushed a button.

Yes, you asked a question. Did you not like my reply?

Originally Posted by seattlegal

I was thinking of this in connection with "secrets of a person's heart."

As I read it and see it, the heart reveals secrets. All that a person does with their heart reveals them. The real secrets to this world are in the soul. Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

As for Jeremiah, it seems like he has a definition of Kingdom of God a little closer to his home than I might have placed it... if it were a scrap of land then why not Seattle?

I think the word 'solve' in your question meant 'overcome', correct? I see no worry with God, but I have considered the possibility. As I see it, Man would destroy the world in days.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only changed or converted.

So then you are an atheist. I used the word 'consume'... is there a better word? Are you a consumer?

Originally Posted by Quahom1

There is never a loss of energy in the universe, nor is there a gain of energy in the universe.

The scientist appears to be the last to admit there is something that he can never measure... and correspondingly that there is energy he can never use again. Engineers are more productive with that dynamic.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

"Law of conservation of energy"

Would that be patience and forgiveness? Maybe like a quantum physicist, I find both the sense and the science are half correct and half wrong. Maybe one would say: entangled.

[Dondi]

Who is 'WE'... are you counting God? What is there to solve: Quantum entanglement?

If you are asking if people will find a way to independently measure things outside of the body without using energy or leaving tracks... then NO, I don't think so. But with God anything is possible. Physically it would be a massive change in the physical laws and everything would end up operating differently. It would be a different universe.

This is why Christians, at least those who hold the pail of orthodoxy, hold to the possibility that God could come to earth in the form of a human. Why is that so diametrically opposed by Islam?

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Dondi

This is why Christians, at least those who hold the pail of orthodoxy, hold to the possibility that God could come to earth in the form of a human. Why is that so diametrically opposed by Islam?

I don't find anything about pails of orthodoxy in the Gospels or the Qur'an, but I do read about a voice in the clouds that spoke in the presence of Jesus before a couple of witnesses. Whose voice was it that said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; listen to him."?

I submit that voices from clouds is within the consumption of energy... a true record was kept of the event and may be seen someday in perfect detail.... God willing.