Knowledge of Good and Evil

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I am very intrigued, please continue!

Well I was just expanding on the concept and using a couple of verses from Judaism to challenge one's notion. From the gospels, if law is a matter of judgment, mercy, and faith... then God's judgment, mercy, and faith is significantly more encompassing than what people presently understand.

For example, consider some people who agree that underwater basket weaving is a dangerous sport around boats and agree to keep the two separate, but then a person does it anyway and someone gets hit by a boat. Then the person who went underwater basket weaving might have been a hypocrite, or maybe he forgot, or misunderstood the agreement. Lets say that someone refuses to agree on where to boat and where to permit underwater basket weaving, then that person would be for iniquity. Lets say that a religious scholar might derive where a book says people should boat, and where people should underwater basket weave, but then the people who would do either might not personally agree to it. There is no commandment, "Thou shalt not underwater basket weave near boats", or "Thou shalt not boat near underwater basket weavers", but I submit that God's law incorporates everything that a person thinks, says, and does.

I try not to oppose one Abrahamic religion with another, but Victor writes about three of them. From Islam I would point out that the Qur'an says NOT to define things as lawful and unlawful and associate them with Allah (swt). Then what is Allah's Law? What is divine law?

I consider that Shariah is an unlawful institution per the Qur'an because individuals do NOT judge what is rightful and agree with each other in Faith, but instead are blindly led or oppressed to adhere to what a scholar believes is lawful or unlawful as if it were from Allah (swt). The scholars are self appointed to reside between an individual and Allah (swt) as the author of rules. For example if a scholar were to suggest to me that underwater basket weaving is unlawful then I would inquire as to why and consider it, but would probably have good reason to disagree and inform him that I consider him wrong. If he then oppresses me with it, then he is the one who has disobeyed Allah's Law per the Qur'an... which the Islamic scholar allegedly believes in.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, cyberpi!

Thank you very much for the reply. I am even more intrigued!

I do not wish to put the cart before the horse, but I feel I should address your final comment first:

Originally Posted by cyberpi

For example if a scholar were to suggest to me that underwater basket weaving is unlawful then I would inquire as to why and consider it, but would probably have good reason to disagree and inform him that I consider him wrong. If he then oppresses me with it, then he is the one who has disobeyed Allah's Law per the Qur'an... which the Islamic scholar allegedly believes in.

My reactive response is that scholars are people too, and subject to being fallible. Yet, that also supports your point and impugns any fallible human (which is every living person) who deigns stand in the stead of G-d, speaking for Him. From what I can determine, I suspect we see much the same from differing vantages. In effect, it seems to me you have reached your conclusion by the letter of law, where I have reached my conclusion by spirit of intent.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Well I was just expanding on the concept and using a couple of verses from Judaism to challenge one's notion. From the gospels, if law is a matter of judgment, mercy, and faith... then God's judgment, mercy, and faith is significantly more encompassing than what people presently understand.

Again, I see this in a similar manner, but reached it by a differing route.

Judaism has its sages. Christianity less so, and few given credence approaching Scripture. I know less of Islam, but what I have learned lately implies to me that the interpretations of wise and learned Islamic scholars are deemed on a level effectively on a par with Scripture. Nevermind Mohammed did not actually say what a later interpretation teaches, nor even comes close. Because by wit and worldly wisdom the teachings of Mohammed are interpreted opposite from their intended meaning, enough *followers* will obey without question because of the charisma of a particular spiritual leader. Christianity too, has its own struggles in this vein, but no scholar or interpretation is held to the level of Scripture...save the possible exception of some very old scholars dating so far back the only Christian church was Catholic. (I am referring here to the likes and times of Thomas Aquinas, and a modest handful who preceded him, who did help shape the course of Catholicism.) Judaism has its scholars and sages too, but their application is more complex. The scholars themselves, or I would think even individual interpretations, are not accorded the level of Scripture, yet over time their mystical wisdom has left an indelible mark on the faith. At least, this is how these things are unfolding to me.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

For example, consider some people who agree that underwater basket weaving is a dangerous sport around boats and agree to keep the two separate, but then a person does it anyway and someone gets hit by a boat. Then the person who went underwater basket weaving might have been a hypocrite, or maybe he forgot, or misunderstood the agreement. Lets say that someone refuses to agree on where to boat and where to permit underwater basket weaving, then that person would be for iniquity. (*or an heretic, -jt3*) Lets say that a religious scholar might derive where a book says people should boat, and where people should underwater basket weave, but then the people who would do either might not personally agree to it. There is no commandment, "Thou shalt not underwater basket weave near boats", or "Thou shalt not boat near underwater basket weavers", but I submit that God's law incorporates everything that a person thinks, says, and does.

I believe I follow what you are saying, and agree, up to your conclusion; "I submit that God's law incorporates everything that a person thinks, says, and does." I'm not certain I agree with this. Perhaps in the sense that eternal laws of nature (gravity, atrophy, survival, etc.) I can agree. But typically when we speak of "G-d's law," we are speaking of a religious dictate "set in stone." I would think this to be true among all of the Abrahamic faiths. I'm not certain how to equate the Ten Commandments with the law of gravity in a practical sense, yet I think I can see and somewhat agree in a philosophical sense.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I try not to oppose one Abrahamic religion with another, but Victor writes about three of them. From Islam I would point out that the Qur'an says NOT to define things as lawful and unlawful and associate them with Allah (swt). Then what is Allah's Law? What is divine law?

You appear far more versed than I in matters of Islam.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I consider that Shariah is an unlawful institution per the Qur'an because individuals do NOT judge what is rightful and agree with each other in Faith, but instead are blindly led or oppressed to adhere to what a scholar believes is lawful or unlawful as if it were from Allah (swt). The scholars are self appointed to reside between an individual and Allah (swt) as the author of rules.

Very well, yet I suppose one could point to the excesses of the Christian church when it held a monopoly over the West. What I see of Sharia today reminds me very much of that sordid point in the history of the Christian faith. Yet, there is something too to be said for how the rise of secularism has degraded the faith, and certainly diminished the population of faithful (on a per capita basis). There is a much lesser percentage of "faithful" Christians of any denomination now than there was during the heyday of the Dark Ages. (I am willing to concede a lot has to do with who is counting and how the count is taken.) So we struggle to walk a tightrope with blind and rabid fanaticism on one side and apathetic secularism on the other. For those whose balance isn't very good, or whose attention is drawn elsewhere, it is simply easier to chose one side or the other.

So, now I've probably done gone and rattled everybody's cages. At least it can be fairly and rightly said I am an equal opportunity critic!

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I believe I follow what you are saying, and agree, up to your conclusion; "I submit that God's law incorporates everything that a person thinks, says, and does." I'm not certain I agree with this. Perhaps in the sense that eternal laws of nature (gravity, atrophy, survival, etc.) I can agree. But typically when we speak of "G-d's law," we are speaking of a religious dictate "set in stone." I would think this to be true among all of the Abrahamic faiths. I'm not certain how to equate the Ten Commandments with the law of gravity in a practical sense, yet I think I can see and somewhat agree in a philosophical sense.

I find it in verses like this:
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Matthew 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
Luke 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Not a scratch of the Law is lost, whereas the Ten Commandments in stone can be dropped and broken?! The exact state before, during, and after is still in the Universe. It might be hard to imagine, but the fact that all things require some form of energy to interact means that all things are being recorded. This world is kept blind to it, but every moment and particle of history is being precisely kept in a fashion that people can not see. Far better than any memory, the exact state of all matter and light at every moment of interaction has been kept.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Not a scratch of the Law is lost, whereas the Ten Commandments in stone can be dropped and broken?! The exact state before, during, and after is still in the Universe. It might be hard to imagine, but the fact that all things require some form of energy to interact means that all things are being recorded. This world is kept blind to it, but every moment and particle of history is being precisely kept in a fashion that people can not see. Far better than any memory, the exact state of all matter and light at every moment of interaction has been kept.

I like it!

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I find it in verses like this:
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Matthew 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
Luke 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Not a scratch of the Law is lost, whereas the Ten Commandments in stone can be dropped and broken?! The exact state before, during, and after is still in the Universe. It might be hard to imagine, but the fact that all things require some form of energy to interact means that all things are being recorded. This world is kept blind to it, but every moment and particle of history is being precisely kept in a fashion that people can not see. Far better than any memory, the exact state of all matter and light at every moment of interaction has been kept.

Does this mean that we will solve the Uncertainty Principle?

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Does this mean that we will solve the Uncertainty Principle?

But then we'd have to change the name in all the texts to "the Certainty Principle."

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Does this mean that we will solve the Uncertainty Principle?

Who is 'WE'... are you counting God? What is there to solve: Quantum entanglement?

If you are asking if people will find a way to independently measure things outside of the body without using energy or leaving tracks... then NO, I don't think so. But with God anything is possible. Physically it would be a massive change in the physical laws and everything would end up operating differently. It would be a different universe. However metaphysically I find that quite a bit is possible. I suggest that all of the miracles in the Bible occured within the rule that energy be used and that a physical record was kept; however, the control loops are partly metaphysical. If a measurement is physical coming in through a person's physical senses then my answer is NO: there is no method of physical measurement that does not use energy and correspondingly leave a record.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Who is 'WE'... are you counting God? What is there to solve: Quantum entanglement?

If you are asking if people will find a way to independently measure things outside of the body without using energy or leaving tracks... then NO, I don't think so. But with God anything is possible. Physically it would be a massive change in the physical laws and everything would end up operating differently. It would be a different universe. However metaphysically I find that quite a bit is possible. I suggest that all of the miracles in the Bible occured within the rule that energy be used and that a physical record was kept; however, the control loops are partly metaphysical. If a measurement is physical coming in through a person's physical senses then my answer is NO: there is no method of physical measurement that does not use energy and correspondingly leave a record.

Sound powered phone comes to mind. The listener does nothing, but when a person speaks into one end, the receiver can measure the the volume and quality of the signal, without exherting energy back.

Passive sonar is another one. No energy exherted yet the signal recieved is measured.

A glider or a bird caught in a thermal cline is another one. They both rise with the energy of the heat, yet exhert no energy of their own, yet the measure of the heat is made by the rise of the body.

Finally, the simple light vane (the lightbulb looking thing with spinning black and white squares balance on an axis?). It has no energy of its own, yet measures quite accurately, the energy of light bathing it.

[cyberpi]

Every single form of measurement consumes energy and correspondingly leaves evidence in the Universe that perfectly records every aspect of the event... including the examples you provide.

[seattlegal]

Sounds like I pushed a button.
The reason why I asked is because of the larger context surrounding Matt 5:18, which you posted:

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

compared to:

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him. 15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
16 “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

I was thinking of this in connection with "secrets of a person's heart."
(compare Jeremiah 31:33-34)

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Sounds like I pushed a button.

Seattlegal, did you let Schroedinger's cat out of the box again?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Every single form of measurement consumes energy and correspondingly leaves evidence in the Universe that perfectly records every aspect of the event... including the examples you provide.

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only changed or converted. There is never a loss of energy in the universe, nor is there a gain of energy in the universe. "Law of conservation of energy"

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Seattlegal, did you let Schroedinger's cat out of the box again?

Do you want me to open the box and check?

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Do you want me to open the box and check?

Ah! Answering a question with a question?

(That poor cat catches hell...if he did get out he ain't never coming back!)

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Ah! Answering a question with a question?

(That poor cat catches hell...if he did get out he ain't never coming back!)

He can't get out, he's dead. Don't believe me?