Let's Discuss

[wil]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

...Jesus who is God suffered that punishment once and for all

It pleased God to punish Jesus... thats how much He HATES sin..

Jesus suffered for ALL sins for ALL time.. because He is God it was enough...

Contemplating, Jesus=G-d...

G-d who is Jesus suffered that punishment once and for all

It pleased Jesus to punish G-d...thats how much He HATES sin..

G-d suffered for all sins for ALL time...because He is G-d it was enough...

Contemplating trinity...

Jesus loved humanity so much He sent His only begotten Son G-d to earth...to die for our sins...

[bupanishad2007]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

no.. your mistake is purposefully disregarding Jesus Christ..

You are arguing without considering where I am coming from..

The OT was preparing Israel for the coming of the Messiah.. You are hating a God that wanted to save you by coming in flesh to die for you..

I see you are retired military.. how many people did you kill "for your country"?

whats the difference? Your argument is flawed.

"I see you are retired military.. how many people did you kill "for your country"? "
And the answer is, NONE that I know of. I was in the Army in Vietnam and then in the Air Force for 18 years, totalling 20+ years. I'm proud of my service, but I didn't accept it without question. I, personally, did not have any enemies, although my Country did. I'm not questioning God, Whom I love and serve, but YOU, who seem to think you know even better than God what's required of us. "Flawed argument"? Perhaps. Certainly one of us is DEAD wrong!

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by bupanishad2007

"I see you are retired military.. how many people did you kill "for your country"? "
And the answer is, NONE that I know of. I was in the Army in Vietnam and then in the Air Force for 18 years, totalling 20+ years. I'm proud of my service, but I didn't accept it without question. I, personally, did not have any enemies, although my Country did. I'm not questioning God, Whom I love and serve, but YOU, who seem to think you know even better than God what's required of us. "Flawed argument"? Perhaps. Certainly one of us is DEAD wrong!

My dad was Air Force and served 3 tours in vietnam and was in law enforcement for 18 years before he died I know he had to kill and suffered for it greatly and I honor him for the sacrifices he made for this country. I was born in Dover AFB and my dad is a huge reason why I am the way I am and believe the way I believe. He died from cancer the cause Agent Orange spread by the country he served most of his life.. he didnt die in bitterness and I am not bitter because Gods will be done and not mine.. He is with his creator.

I think you hate what I stand for and I stand for Jesus Christ whom I serve without question... I believe everything my bible says whether I understand it or not.. that is what faith is.. believing in something not seen.

[bupanishad2007]

"I believe everything my bible says whether I understand it or not.. "

I'm sorry about your Dad. My children all have had or do have spinal problems due to Agent Orange. It must have been rough for you. I'm sorry. No doubt you must believe or you would go bonkers---I don't mean that bad---that's why I believe. But I would still strive for more and ever more understanding. I think that's what St. Paul, for one, would have us do.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I disagree. I loved God from as far back as I can remember, and I have never had a time I did not seek after Him.

I cannot doubt that you've loved your god and sought him as far back as you can remember. However, holy writ shall be my measuring rod and I can only affirm with it that "none seek after God (Rom 3:11)." Therefore, in my attempt to let God be true and every man a liar, I must believe that your god isnt God - for none sought Him and None loved Him, save those who He has given grace that they may see that He first loved them with an incredible and mighty love where which He proved in the agony of His believed Son, Jesus.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Silas –

Can I speak with people of God (Christians) for a moment alone please?

OK. I'm Catholic.

Guys, I was wondering how you understand free will.

CCC311:
"Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil..."

CCC307:
"...God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbours. Though often unconscious collaborators with God's will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions, their prayers and their sufferings. They then fully become "God's fellow workers" and co-workers for his kingdom."

Thomas

Hi Thomas,

I agree that man has a free will, as evident in scripture. But agian, I see from scripture that will is bound in a willingness to love sin and hate God. Can you show me from scritpture one person who choose to serve God out of His/her own will, pior to God's grace?

[bupanishad2007]

Originally Posted by Silas

Hi Thomas,

I agree that man has a free will, as evident in scripture. But agian, I see from scripture that will is bound in a willingness to love sin and hate God. Can you show me from scritpture one person who choose to serve God out of His/her own will, pior to God's grace?

We "live, move, and have our being" by God's grace. How much more "prevenient" can you get than that?

[Silas]

For: Faithful

You menitioned this:

"I have come to wonder if God chooses us all. After all, Scripture tells us that The Creator created us all, and died for all. Free will? Yes, we are free to choose His Love. (edited to add: or try to reject it)."

As a young Christian who is known recieving grace to understand these deep, yet basic truths of scripture, I find it extremely difficult to speak with other saints of the faith who are not only older than I, but may not be familar with, or even learned in theology and who are also bias to their traditions, which is evident by their unwillingness to "test the spirits" if it were. I can only ask that you would consider my words and weigh what I say in light of God's words. Again, I want to affirm with you all that man has a will. As for the word "free" I'm not so sure I want to use it. It is true that man has a choice but he always chooses that which is right in his own eyes. Yes, he can do good and be moral, as our Lord says..."You being "evil" know how to give good" Matt 7:11). However, when commanded to do the hightest good - namely, "deny self and follow after the hard and rough ways of the Christ," No one does it. Why? Because naturally we do not want this, but we want our own way.

If people would admit and understand that creatures are acting always consistant with their nature, then you would know that since man's nature is evil and loving of sin, he will not choose God as Scripture so plainly shows. Therefore, for God to show His love and mercy on rebellious man - and Romans 9 comes to mind here - He must choose from the same wicked lump of clay (humanity) some to display His love and mercy and leave the rest who already hate Him, to their own desiers and eventually punish them to show His power, wrath and justice. Now, we get to the seeminly difficult part. For whom did Christ die for? Well, let scriptures tell it. First I must make known to you that the words "all" and "world" in scripture have many different meanings - see for yourself (Mar 1:5; Joh 6:45; Joh 8:2; Act 21:28; Act 22:15; 2Co 3:2 etc.). We see from these scriptures that "all" does not mean everyone indivisually, but of all sorts of everyone, e.g., some kings, some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, etc. Indeed if God intended for all of already guilty mankind to be saved, He would have done so since we know from scipture that "What His soul desireth even that He doeth" (Job 23:13).

In Jesus!

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I was addressing this on another thread.. God hates sin and we are to hate what He hates so that makes hating what God hates a christian virtue.. lol Im waiting for flame on that.

I love that Jesus shared His righteousness with me.. To be righteous is to be IN Christ.. When God speaks of righteousness He is speaking of Jesus in us.. the annointing of us.. we are annointed by the blood of Jesus.. there are none righteous without Jesus and His blood.

Amen!

[Silas]

Originally Posted by bupanishad2007

We "live, move, and have our being" by God's grace. How much more "prevenient" can you get than that?

“Of Him” — His will is the origin of all existence; “through” or “by Him” — He is the Creator and Controller of all; “to Him” — all things promote His glory in their final end.

[bupanishad2007]

Originally Posted by Silas

“Of Him” — His will is the origin of all existence; “through” or “by Him” — He is the Creator and Controller of all; “to Him” — all things promote His glory in their final end.

Agree wholeheartedly!

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Silas

Hi Thomas,

I agree that man has a free will, as evident in scripture. But agian, I see from scripture that will is bound in a willingness to love sin and hate God. Can you show me from scritpture one person who choose to serve God out of His/her own will, pior to God's grace?

Silas,

How then do you explain Enoch who walked with God before Jesus came and so pleased God that he was translated so as to not taste death.
Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Amen,
JM

[Silas]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Silas,

How then do you explain Enoch who walked with God before Jesus came and so pleased God that he was translated so as to not taste death.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Amen,
JM

You know what? I often think of Enoch and how amazing a man he must have been. I like to think that unlike the rest of us, Enoch walked with God insomuch that when faced with temptations and trials of any sort, He did not turn aside and sin, but trusted in God. As a result, God took him up to Heaven. Sort of like..."All you do is think of me and love me, so come be with me, Enoch." Thats what I like to think and what I use to motivate me when I face trails and temptations. But alas, that is only conjecture. What we have from scripture is that faith is a gift that some and not everyone recieves (2Th 3:2). Therefore, we see again that grace was once again given soverignly to whom God willed it and since it is by grace we believe (Acts 18:27), Enoch isnt so different from anyone else who first had to reieve grace and faith from God that they may love Him.

[InLove]

Hello Again Silas--

Umm...I believe you may have gotten me mixed up with Faithfulservant. It was me who wrote:

Originally Posted by InLove

I have come to wonder if God chooses us all. After all, Scripture tells us that The Creator created us all, and died for all. Free will? Yes, we are free to choose His Love. (edited to add: or try to reject it)

If "every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord," then that seems to include everyone. Exactly how that happens, well...we are not given every detail. I think there are good and holy reasons for that.

Exactly how God reveals himself to every person is not something I can say I know for sure. If I am to love my neighbor, and love my enemy, and above all love God, then I am not willing to project my measly understanding upon the holy mind and Spirit of God. "He" will reveal all things in His own time and in His own way. In the meantime, I will continue to glory and find comfort and peace in the things He allows me to comprehend through that beautiful Spirit, and I will not pass judgement on others if I can help it (and I believe He said He would aid me in that regard--He will not give me more than I can bear--and when I transgress in this area, He will show me my sin). I will work toward understanding His will, and by His choice and mine, I will find peace even when there appears to be none.

InPeace,
InLove

Originally Posted by Silas

As a young Christian who is known recieving grace to understand these deep, yet basic truths of scripture, I find it extremely difficult to speak with other saints of the faith who are not only older than I, but may not be familar with, or even learned in theology and who are also bias to their traditions, which is evident by their unwillingness to "test the spirits" if it were....

Silas--I am not sure if you are referring to me or to someone else here. If you are addressing me personally with these issues, then I would ask you why you are having so much trouble communicating with someone you acknowledge as a believer. When you say "young" and "old", do you mean in years or in the faith? And I'm curious, what "traditions" do you mean? And are you a learned theologian?

And I am wondering if you equate "discerning spirits" with "passing judgement"?

Originally Posted by Silas

I can only ask that you would consider my words and weigh what I say in light of God's words.

Okay.

Originally Posted by Silas

Again, I want to affirm with you all that man has a will. As for the word "free" I'm not so sure I want to use it. It is true that man has a choice but he always chooses that which is right in his own eyes. Yes, he can do good and be moral, as our Lord says..."You being "evil" know how to give good" Matt 7:11). However, when commanded to do the hightest good - namely, "deny self and follow after the hard and rough ways of the Christ," No one does it. Why? Because naturally we do not want this, but we want our own way.

So if God has not given us "free will", then He has only given us "His will"? Is this what you are trying to say? If that is what He has given us, then why in Matthew 7 to which you refer, would he tell us that everyone who seeks Him will find His door open? And once we seek, and the door is opened, does He not promise us that He will guide our ways? Maybe you are trying to say that without His grace, no one will seek Him. Okay. But are you saying that His grace did not exist before the death and resurrection of Jesus as Christ? If this is true, do you think that Abraham is doomed to hell?

I am just trying to understand what you are trying to say.

Originally Posted by Silas

If people would admit and understand that creatures are acting always consistant with their nature, then you would know that since man's nature is evil and loving of sin, he will not choose God as Scripture so plainly shows. Therefore, for God to show His love and mercy on rebellious man - and Romans 9 comes to mind here - He must choose from the same wicked lump of clay (humanity) some to display His love and mercy and leave the rest who already hate Him, to their own desiers and eventually punish them to show His power, wrath and justice.

Do you think God, who you concur is Love, would punish someone to show His anger and power? That is what some kings of this world do. I trust that my Father would only punish me out of concern for my well-being. I think that sometimes we tend to think of "justice" in our own worldly way, and not in terms of true justice, which is holy and full of mercy.

Originally Posted by Silas

Now, we get to the seeminly difficult part. For whom did Christ die for? Well, let scriptures tell it. First I must make known to you that the words "all" and "world" in scripture have many different meanings - see for yourself (Mar 1:5; Joh 6:45; Joh 8:2; Act 21:28; Act 22:15; 2Co 3:2 etc.). We see from these scriptures that "all" does not mean everyone indivisually, but of all sorts of everyone, e.g., some kings, some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, etc. Indeed if God intended for all of already guilty mankind to be saved, He would have done so since we know from scipture that "What His soul desireth even that He doeth" (Job 23:13).

Yes, Silas. God's message is often misinterpreted. I believe the Bible is full of examples where folks couldn't quite understand. I trust that I am still being led in The Spirit who opens the eyes of anyone who asks, and helps us to not be blind, but to see. And I agree that God has promised that He will do what His heart desires.

InPeace,
InChrist,
InLove

[Silas]

Silas--I am not sure if you are referring to me or to someone else here. If you are addressing me personally with these issues, then I would ask you why you are having so much trouble communicating with someone you acknowledge as a believer. When you say "young" and "old", do you mean in years or in the faith? And I'm curious, what "traditions" do you mean? And are you a learned theologian?

Yeah sorry, I think I was speaking with someone else? As for the age issue, I was speaking of both cronologically and spiritually, but more so spiritually. As for traditions, Ive found that many Christians (like myself at one time) recieve their theology for tv preachers and their own pastors who also lack understanding of true Biblical doctrines that the chruch of yester-year held from the Reformation through the Pilgrims and Great Awakening of the early US, until today. Forgive me if that sounds mean, I really dont mean to be. But I believe the Chruch in the US needs another reformation. As for me being a learned thelogian. No, Im far from. Im just a student.

And I am wondering if you equate "discerning spirits" with "passing judgement"?

No. Sorry if I was vague. I didnt mean to be. By discerning I meant just testing to see if what I said was true in light of scripture. U know?

So if God has not given us "free will", then He has only given us "His will"? Is this what you are trying to say? If that is what He has given us, then why in Matthew 7 to which you refer, would he tell us that everyone who seeks Him will find His door open? And once we seek, and the door is opened, does He not promise us that He will guide our ways? Maybe you are trying to say that without His grace, no one will seek Him. Okay. But are you saying that His grace did not exist before the death and resurrection of Jesus as Christ? If this is true, do you think that Abraham is doomed to hell?

LOL! No, no. Not at all! The OT saints got saved the same way the NT saints got saved: Through faith in the Messiah. The OT saints believed in the promise to come and we believe in the filfillment of the promise that Came - Jesus. Futhermore, it was through Abraham, God made an eternal covernant and that is why a lot of us believe in Christ today (Roms 9:7). Again, yes we have free will. But with it, we choose to love sin and hate God. Yes, God does tell us to come. But He also says that we cannot come unless He first draw us (John 6:44). So again, grace must proceed faith or our willingness to seek, knock, choose, or even love God.

I am just trying to understand what you are trying to say.

I know. I appriciate that!

Do you think God, who you concur is Love, would punish someone to show His anger and power? That is what some kings of this world do. I trust that my Father would only punish me out of concern for my well-being. I think that sometimes we tend to think of "justice" in our own worldly way, and not in terms of true justice, which is holy and full of mercy.

Good question! I'l first have to distingust between the elect and nonelect. There is NO condemnation for those in Christ. Therefore, when God punishes his children, it is not in wrath, but in love. It is for their own good, for "the lord chastise those he loves." (Pro. 3:12). Yet, scripture is also riddled with proof that God does punish people to show His power (Rom. 9:17 etc.). Why? I dont know. I just know that God is soverign and does what He wills and is always right. I just have to believe what scriptures say, no matter how hard it may seems. I KNOW he is just, so I trust God.

Yes, Silas. God's message is often misinterpreted. I believe the Bible is full of examples where folks couldn't quite understand. I trust that I am still being led in The Spirit who opens the eyes of anyone who asks, and helps us to not be blind, but to see. And I agree that God has promised that He will do what His heart desires.

Amen. Good speaking with you!!