Let's Discuss

Silas · 12-08-2006, 07:46 PM

Can I speak with people of God (Christians) for a moment alone please? Guys, I was wondering how you understand free will. Please explain how you understand it as I'd like to try to understand my own views by juxtaposition of other saints. Also, I know the scripture tell that we must repent and come to Christ that we may flee the wrath that is to come. My other question is, since that command is so explicited, do you suppose that man can come in and of his own strenght or willingness, and that God will not command something that He knows we cannot proform?

Thanks!

moseslmpg · 12-08-2006, 08:29 PM

Free will is the notion that we can do whatever we choose to do and are not bound by a predetermined path. That's the only way of understanding it, I think. I'm not sure about the other question.

Silas · 12-08-2006, 08:32 PM

Thanks for your imput, friend. But please understand, I was hoping for a Christian view on this, OK?

Thanks!

Matt Langley · 12-08-2006, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Guys, I was wondering how you understand free will. Please explain how you understand it

To me it's fairly obvious and the simlest of explanations. We have the ability and right to choice. We are not slaves or puppets that God can pull the strings of. We have every right to do or not do what God and/or ourselves want.

Quote:

Also, I know the scripture tell that we must repent and come to Christ that we may flee the wrath that is to come. My other question is, since that command is so explicited, do you suppose that man can come in and of his own strenght or willingness, and that God will not command something that He knows we cannot proform?

I think we do. In fact I think that is what God is implying and what Jesus enabled. We have a path to the forgiveness of our sins and we have the free will, choice, and ability to repent.

Though on a much lighter note I think God gave us free will so we could enjoy life. So we could aspire and better ourself.

bupanishad2007 · 12-08-2006, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

Thanks for your imput, friend. But please understand, I was hoping for a Christian view on this, OK?

Thanks!

Silas, can God will to NOT KNOW something? That is the only way, as a Christian, I could see how there could be free will. (The Jews in their "Qabala" have a doctrine something like this.)

Silas · 12-08-2006, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Langley

To me it's fairly obvious and the simlest of explanations. We have the ability and right to choice. We are not slaves or puppets that God can pull the strings of. We have every right to do or not do what God and/or ourselves want.I think we do. In fact I think that is what God is implying and what Jesus enabled. We have a path to the forgiveness of our sins and we have the free will, choice, and ability to repent. Though on a much lighter note I think God gave us free will so we could enjoy life. So we could aspire and better ourself.

I agree that we have free will and choice, but my question is concerning which of us use our free will of choice to choose God?

Silas · 12-08-2006, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bupanishad2007

Silas, can God will to NOT KNOW something? That is the only way, as a Christian, I could see how there could be free will. (The Jews in their "Qabala" have a doctrine something like this.)

I suppose I could guess that God could will not to know something? But, Im going to deal with conjecture, but instead only what the scriptures reaveal. And, the scripture reveals that God knows everything that is going to occure. He knows the end from the begining.

So concerning free will...which of us choose to love God and seek after Him?

pattimax · 12-08-2006, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

Can I speak with people of God (Christians) for a moment alone please? Guys, I was wondering how you understand free will. Please explain how you understand it as I'd like to try to understand my own views by juxtaposition of other saints. Also, I know the scripture tell that we must repent and come to Christ that we may flee the wrath that is to come. My other question is, since that command is so explicited, do you suppose that man can come in and of his own strenght or willingness, and that God will not command something that He knows we cannot proform?

Thanks!

Greetings Silas!
1. Human beings were created in God's image. Besides His image, his creation was also created with choice and free will. When you become a Christian, you are given grace and then you then have the abilty to choose the grace you have been freely given. (For you naysayers, read: Christian Grace) IF you choose this awesome grace, your will and God's will become the same. As for the impending wrath, I'll choose grace and not fear.

2. Are you nuts? Even though we were created in his image, He knows we are NOT God. Would he command us to do something we are unable to do? God loves us quite a bit. He wouldn't do something like that. (just kidding about the nuts part, I think you say some good things.)

sincerely, pattimax

pattimax · 12-08-2006, 10:18 PM

As for choosing God, I thought that was a given.

Silas · 12-08-2006, 10:45 PM

Thanks for the reply pattimix, my responces are in blue.

1. Human beings were created in God's image. Besides His image, his creation was also created with choice and free will. When you become a Christian, you are given grace and then you then have the abilty to choose the grace you have been freely given. (For you naysayers, read: Christian Grace) IF you choose this awesome grace, your will and God's will become the same. As for the impending wrath, I'll choose grace and not fear.

I agree that grace proceeds faith, thats obvious since no one seeks after God (rom. 3:11) and that Jesus said we cannot come until the Father first draw us (John 6:44), there again showing that no one comes eventhough we not only should, but we need to. But I have to say, I dont see that after the fall, man having a free will. Wait, let me clarify. I see man's free will being bound up in a love for sin (John 3:19, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11) and therefore when faced with the highest good - namely, to deny self and follow Christ, NO ONE does it. But, thank God for grace though. God makes us willing!

2. Are you nuts? Even though we were created in his image, He knows we are NOT God. Would he command us to do something we are unable to do? God loves us quite a bit. He wouldn't do something like that. (just kidding about the nuts part, I think you say some good things.)

I agree that God loves us...and to this day I dont know why. The more I learn of me, the more Im amazed of his love. That said however, God commanded Pharoh to "let his people go" knowing that He couldnt do it. Why? Because God made him not able to do it by hardening his heart. Also, God commands us to be pefect - none can do that. He commands us to Love Him with all of our minds, heart, wills, strength, etc., and none of us do either. In fact, the heart cry of the Christians is "Lord, I dont love you as I ought." Also, Jesus commanded Lazarus to get up from the grace. Lazarus was dead and could not in and his own strenght "hear" Jesus call.

Likewise, God calls us spiritually dead people to repent and come to Christ knowing that we cannot because He first must draw us. Now, these are all examples of God commanding things that He knows we cannot do in and of our strenght. I assure you that the Lord isnt being disingenuous, but instead teaching something - namely man's total inabilty to come because no one loves God (we only love him after we're born agian and realized that he first loved us). This is what theologians call "Total Depravity." Or, part of it, I mean.

pattimax · 12-09-2006, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

That said however, God commanded Pharoh to "let his people go" knowing that He couldnt do it. Why? Because God made him not able to do it by hardening his heart. Also, God commands us to be pefect - none can do that. He commands us to Love Him with all of our minds, heart, wills, strength, etc., and none of us do either. In fact, the heart cry of the Christians is "Lord, I dont love you as I ought." Also, Jesus commanded Lazarus to get up from the grace. Lazarus was dead and could not in and his own strenght "hear" Jesus call.

Likewise, God calls us spiritually dead people to repent and come to Christ knowing that we cannot because He first must draw us. Now, these are all examples of God commanding things that He knows we cannot do in and of our strength. I assure you that the Lord isnt being disingenuous, but instead teaching something - namely man's total inabilty to come because no one loves God (we only love him after we're born agian and realized that he first loved us). This is what theologians call "Total Depravity." Or, part of it, I mean.

Yes, I understand what your saying. Drawing us to come to Christ is dependent on Him. And thereafter, we are completely dependent on him.
Please pardon me.

pattimax · 12-09-2006, 12:59 AM

Oh yeah, Pharoahs heart already had a good start on being hard. God just finished it. It seems he had already made the choice. (You know that!)

JosephM · 12-09-2006, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silas

I agree that God loves us...and to this day I dont know why. The more I learn of me, the more Im amazed of his love.

Greeting Silas and Pattimax,

I guess I am more simple minded because it seems simple to me. God loves us because we came from him as does all of creation. Witness the imperfect love of a mother for a child that came from her womb. She loves the child no matter what and her love is miniscule compared to God. Gods love is unconditional because he created you in full knoeldge of what you would become and you came from him as does all creation which he loves equally. How can he not love you. God is Love. that is his essence. Just a view for your consideration.

Love in Christ,
JM

Silas · 12-09-2006, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pattimax

Oh yeah, Pharoahs heart already had a good start on being hard. God just finished it. It seems he had already made the choice. (You know that!)

Yeah, I think you're right, the first five times the Bible says that Pharoah hardened his own heart and the other five times it says that God did the hardening. It does still seem that God never had intention of saving Pharoah in the first place though, because Scriptures state that "God raised him up for the very purpose of showing himself [God] strong." God is soveriegn in everything, even in salvation.

"Salvation is of the Lord."

Silas · 12-09-2006, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JosephM

Greeting Silas and Pattimax,

I guess I am more simple minded because it seems simple to me. God loves us because we came from him as does all of creation. Witness the imperfect love of a mother for a child that came from her womb. She loves the child no matter what and her love is miniscule compared to God. Gods love is unconditional because he created you in full knoeldge of what you would become and you came from him as does all creation which he loves equally. How can he not love you. God is Love. that is his essence. Just a view for your consideration.

Love in Christ,
JM

Excuse me, I dont mean to come off harsh but you couldnt have learned that from reading scripture. Yes, God is Love! But He is three times Holy, which incidentally is His essence. ALL of God's attributes e.g., love, mercy, justice, wrath, flow from His Holiness. This Holy God hates sin with an extreme passion. Anyone in the Bible who was confronted with God all bowed their head in shame and pronounced a curse on themselves. By God's grace, I have come to understand to some degree, the hatred that God has for sins. The Bible makes it clear that sins are "exceedinly sinful" and absolutely abhorant in the eyes of the Lord. Therefore, when I juxtapose my sins in light of God's exceeding holiness, I feel like the men in the Bible who cries out in shame and astonishment saying..."what is man that you should even be mindful of us."

Adam and Eve sinned only once and their sin was enough for God to pronouce a death curse on everyone. Moreover, He kicked them out of the Garden. I have sined way more than I could count. It is only because God is pleased to show mercy that I am alive and even trusting in Christ. In the Bible, God shows His soverignity by having mercy on whom he wills and punishing whom He wills. Read Romans 9. Since all are equally guilty, God chooses to save who He wills. And not because of something good in them - there is NOTHING good in man that is deserving of Jesus' sufferings, but rather it is all due to God's own choice to love and save whom He wills. This is the God of the Bible. "Fear Him and Keep His Commandments."

- God Bless!!