liberal vs. literal Christian

[Thomas]

Hi Wil -

I don't know if the terms are correct. It is apparent that I am deemed a liberal Christian if not heretical, blasphemous one by many.

OK

But I think, and I am biased that my view of Christianity is often times has more personal requirements than most.

Not sure what you mean here?

We have discussed the Jeffersonian Gospels and the omition of virgin birth, resurection, diety of Jesus, etc...

I can accept that and have it not hurt my belief system or biblical thought at all. Even if it was proved, shown due to historical/archeological evidence that 95% of the biblical historical data were wrong, misinterpretted or even made up....wouldn't affect that I see value in the words that are attributed to Jesus.


It would effect the way we think about the person ... for example, Christ said "I will build this temple..." and we associate that with the Resurrection. If, however, the Resurrection was 'disproved' - then his statement becomes meaningless. If 95% of the data were wrong, then what is there left, but sophistry and lies?

For the Christian believes in the Person of Christ, or rather the Act as well as the Word. It's the actions of Christ that carry the weight, as it is how and who we are as people that carry the spiritual charisms - not what we say, but what we do ... "this people honours me with their lips, but their hearts ... " (Matthew 15:8)

And I think this is why you face accusation. Discard Christ's actions, then his words are words to be numbered among other words, and as many will point out, many have said much the same thing ... the further you pursue this line, the more 'immaterial' Christ becomes ... and once you disassociate the words from the man, then you can interpret the words any way you like.

It is said often that you can't pick and choose which scripture to accept and which to interpret metaphysically rather than historically.... but it seems even the literalists do.

I agree. Fundamentalist Christians seem steeped in the vengence of the Old Testmant and ignore the message of Christ almost entirely. There are extremes of every degree. 'Born again' seem to think they'be been issued with a one-way ticket beforehand ... that's human nature ... in my Hermeticist days, I remember 'the man' observing 'these people drive like they've already made it' (I was driving a '68 5.3lt V8 Plymouth Baracuda at the time - and eventually blew up the gearbox doing standing starts)

Again I think of all the wars that Christians have fought in, all the atrocities that have been committed by churches and Christians (I'm not singling us out, we are not alone, but we do supposedly believe in the new
testament).

I would provisionally agree. Christ's words and actions speak of a completely different social order, which too few aspire to - it's simply too revolutionary. Provisionally only in the sense that every ill in history seems to be the fault of Christianity, as if there was nothing else to human nature but man's belief. Also, a fair amount of propaganda - The Crusades, The Inquistition and the Burning of Witches are a case in point, but this is stuff for another discussion.

And then I think of love your enemy, offer him your coat, judge not less ye, love your neighbor....all these have to be disregarded in order to pick up arms against someone. Sure you can find other texts, if you don't have sword sell your belongings and get one...but again...in my view anytime I see a hateful G-d, or vengeful Jesus...tis time to look at the scripture metaphysically and divine the good and love out of the works...

Agreed.

I think don't commit adultery means don't dilute your principles...and not committing murder includes murdering enthusiasm and creativity...in a lot of ways I read the bible to hold me to a higher standard...that is why I don't feel very liberal.

And I applaud that. I believe the Perpetual Virginity of the Immaculata is a symbol of her fidelity and integrity to her mission, but that is why I believe she is Perpetually Virgin and intacta - like everything about Christianity, it is the spiritual become physical reality.

I would like to highlight the above paragraph - if someone wishes to deny it, then let that person give the metaphysical reasoning why the higher cannot manifest itself in the lower - this, after all - is the crux of the question.

Do I believe Jesus is my lord and saviour and died for my sins? Yes, but not in a literal sense.

Physical and spiritual, see? Are you saying we are 'spiritually' saved, but not 'literally' saved? Then we are saved, but not in a literal sense ... which means in reality we are not saved? The condition of human nature is not abstract, it is a reality - thousands die of it daily - if the crucifixion seems unseemly, or unnecessary, then so does the death of 30,000 children a day in Africa, and they die for precisely the same reason that Christ died, because we don't care and we don't want to be bothered.

If not in the literal sense, then it is an insult to humanity ... because we die, literally.

(the question is: why do we lack the moral will to stop what we know to be wrong?)

I believe that by learning from the way and nature of Jesus by seeing his path to becoming the Christ...

Here's the rub - I would say that such an attitude, or such an interpretation, is the fruit of the relativism that affects the educated west, a world in which the subjective opinion in king? I might go so far as to say that Christians are told "Your rewligion can't mean that, cos mine doesn't..."

Wil - the following paragraph reads like I'm shouting, truly, I'm not, but I am asking rhetorically ... and I am smiling ... but ...

Who is this Christ? If not Jesus himself, a man, then who? If not a man, then what? He is not Jesus, then what is it that we are chasing? Some notion of universal consciousness? Ultimate Being? Some nebulous quality common to everyone someone happens to think worthy? The lowest common denominator of 'Agreed Good Stuff'?

I ask because once you start down the path of relativising, then there is no stopping. God becomes like the card in a three card trick, always there when it's shown to you, never there when you turn the card ...

But I am created man, and it is as a man that I shall find my way to God, and it is as a man that God looks for me.

I would rather be a good man who knew nothing, than a bad man who was conscious of the universe - but then, that's nothing original.

by not worshipping him, but attempting to follow in loving footsteps...I can do everything he did and more...if I am able to walk the walk...and I believe when he said ye are G-ds....we are the creator and the created...masters of our destiny, brothers and sisters, children of G-d, the trinity does not exist as we are all one...

Surely to follow in his loving footsteps requires that we lay down our lives for another, without counting the cost, and wanting nothing in return ... "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends"
John 15:13

Unless, of course, Jesus then said, "not literally, of course, I mean metaphorically, esoterically ... but not really."

Thomas

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Thomas

(the question is: why do we lack the moral will to stop what we know to be wrong?)

Now there's a parenthetical question that packs a punch.

lunamoth

[Quahom1]

What an...interesting thread. However, my perspective is not quite as "detailed" as some of these thoughts are.

A Literal Christian, simply takes the Bible as well, literal. By that very nature, the Literal Christian must remain in a conservative and almost rigid stance on specifics concerning the worldly view, particularly concerning moral ethics and code. There are few shades of gray concerning morality and behaviors to a literal Christian perspective.

Liberal "Christian" (I presume the orginator of this thread attempts to expound upon), perhaps is more accurately described as a Moderate Christian, and is in reality what most Christians, particularly in the United States, Canada, UK and Australia, could be fairly well accurately described as. The Moderate Christian's moral code of ethics and behaviors are not so rigid. The Moderate Christian is not as concerned with stance concerning the worldly view. As such the Moderate Christian tends to wander a bit along the "straight and narrow path". Often enough the "core" values of Christianity remain sound within the thinking and reasoning of the "Moderate Christian", however there is a tendency for the worldly views to distract and at times detour the Moderate Christian from the literal path as perscribed biblically.

At the other end of the spectrum is the "Liberal" or in some cases Liberal Christian in extremis. This group uses the Christian title in name only. Along with everything else in the world, the literal concepts of the Bible are relative at best and for the most part, irrelevent and quaint. Moral and ethical code are held only as far as the individual Liberal Christian perceives them to be, and tend to refuse/refute anything rigidly imposed over their personal perspective. This group tends to use self as guide along the walk of life, and usually have a Bible as a paper weight, or art on the shelf. Scripture might be considered nice or even beautiful and poetic, but that is about the only value it has.

So, in short Literal Christian sees life as God/Jesus centered with man as a part.

Moderate Christian sees life as mostly God/Jesus centered but struggles with man's selfcentered nature.

Liberal Christian sees life as Man centered with God/Jesus as an interesting abstract.

As for Thomas' question about us lacking the moral will to stop what we know to be wrong...well that's easy. Because it counters what we desire and we therefore "will" to keep what we desire, over what is right.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[seattlegal]

John 12:37-48

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

John 12:37-48

but that is a 'liberal' isaiah the prophet...so it does not count

yes i am still making a pretty good scapegoat these days.

*heavy sigh - shakes head*

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

What an...interesting thread. However, my perspective is not quite as "detailed" as some of these thoughts are.


Q

this is real good Q & i think i am on the same page. but somehow i dont think moral is going to get to the root of this particular case.

[taijasi]

Wasn't it Dolly Parton's character in the movie Straight Talk who reminded us
that we must "Get off the cross, somebody may need the wood"?

andrew

[Bandit]

ok here are my final thoughts on all this. from what i have gathered, i think Wil is trying to explain his beliefs & that they are liberal beliefs concerning the bible & Jesus.

so i propose this little list because i think this it what i have gathered from many different postings here & other threads. please correct them if they are wrong. i think over all this is what you are trying to say here but dont know how or are not sure how to say it- for reasons i do not know.

1no virgin birth- a liberal birth
2no resurrection
3no literal son of God- a liberal son of God
4no literal savior- a liberal savior
5no blood for the remission of sin
6no trinity
7nothing literal in Genesis- all myth & metaphor
8no literal righteous seed that Jesus came from
9no literal Jonah- a liberal Jonah
10no literal miracles/miracles are natural
11the scriputures were changed, the Jefferson gospel is better
12Jesus in not literally God manifested in the flesh
13not sure on your view of the last supper, except the wine is not real blood
14no water baptism
15at some point Jesus traveled to India or some place in Asia
(why i am not sure & if that is literal or liberal i am not sure)

16you say you follow Jesus teaching but it appears not all of his teaching
(i dont know if that is literal or liberal either)

17open up the vaults of the vatican because there is something in there that is going to change Jesus & the Bible.?

18if 95% of the bible were proven false, that would be a liberal false & not a literal false.

19Bandit knows nothing about the hsitory & making of the Bible.
INCORRECT- Bandit has put the past behind him & chooses not to keep digging up the dirt, because i cannot change the past.

last but not least- we are god(s) - the creator

Originally Posted by wil

Come on now, as I indicated I answered your questions, tongue and cheek as they were. You've made what is currently an empty unsubstantiated accusation and are intending on just leaving it on the table? I thought better of you. You've indicated I am a consistent Christian basher (being the blasphemous, heretical follower of Christ that I am)....Please pick 3 of those many alleged abuses to charge me with.

Wil, i know you are into something different & that is fine for you. no, i am not going to keep telling people everything is ok because real love would not do that. blaspheme the power of God & the Holy Ghost is one thing you might do if you are not careful with the way you are seeing things, especially saying the miracles are natural or never happened- Jesus taught not to make light of the Holy Ghost & the power of God that way.
but i have never called someone a heretic in my life. that word does not exist in my vocabulary.

just a little suggestion for the future & i say this in love, it would be much easier if you just come right out & say what you believe instead of making everyone guess for months. even a short essay would do the trick.
no hard feelings, just a little understanding of your beliefs & i think i got most of it right- at least some of it.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Thomas

like everything about Christianity, it is the spiritual become physical reality.

A way to distinguish the "wheat" from the "chaff."

[InLove]

Hi and Peace To All Here,

I find the following to be extremely relevent to the issue at hand, and worth reiteration:

Originally Posted by Thomas

Discard Christ's actions, then his words are words to be numbered among other words, and as many will point out, many have said much the same thing ... the further you pursue this line, the more 'immaterial' Christ becomes ... and once you disassociate the words from the man, then you can interpret the words any way you like.

I cannot separate the Word from the One who gives it, even when (and this is another discussion) I consider that man has tampered with it. Love is bigger than man's faults.

Yep, I am one of those annoying Christians who will insist that The Word is "layered"; that it is literal, metaphoracal, allegorical, etc. For example, does the Christ of The Revelation literally posess a double-edged sword for a tongue? My answer: If He so desires. But perhaps more important is what that double-edged sword symbolizes--the Truth that comes from the Word that He speaks and His embodiment of that Word displayed as well in His action.

This is what I believe.

InPeace,
InLove

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by InLove

Hi and Peace To All Here,

I find the following to be extremely relevent to the issue at hand, and worth reiteration:



I cannot separate the Word from the One who gives it, even when (and this is another discussion) I consider that man has tampered with it. Love is bigger than man's faults.

Yep, I am one of those annoying Christians who will insist that The Word is "layered"; that it is literal, metaphoracal, allegorical, etc. For example, does the Christ of The Revelation literally posess a double-edged sword for a tongue? My answer: If He so desires. But perhaps more important is what that double-edged sword symbolizes--the Truth that comes from the Word that He speaks and His embodiment of that Word displayed as well in His action.

This is what I believe.

InPeace,
InLove

hi INLove!! sooooooooooooooooo glad to see you again.
that is me also..literal, metaphoric, allegory layered & can be trusted to the ends of the earth.
the truth that comes from the Word of the living God that we serve and love.
oh how lost we would be without it & God would not tell us to have faith in a bunch of 'literal' lies.

i have been thinking about you tonight, must be why i could not sleep.

[wil]

Namaste Bandit, while your list is intriguing, I don't think all can be categorized completely by your list. Obviously many Christians will agree with one or more of your assertions.

I don't think the liberal, or moderate Christians are by proxy to be considered less moral than the literal or dogmatic. The KKK claims to be a very religious biblical based organization and the bible has been thumped on pretty heavy as a war drum over the past 2000 years. The book is often used in negative ways, to lambast folks and 'prove' concepts regarding slavery, treatment of women, and sexual preferences. I think you know what I mean, they may hear forgiveness, and peace and tolerance message from the pulpit.....and then honk and curse trying to get out of the parking lot....spare the rod, spoil the child and all that...

I think that WWJD thought is pretty powerful. How do we encounter the woman at the well, what do we do when asked to judge on someone being stoned?

But I think, and I am biased that my view of Christianity is often times has more personal requirements than most.
-Not sure what you mean here?

Take the ten commandments for instance....I think on the surface they are pretty easy to follow...

Thou shall have no gods before me- but I take that to mean the football god, the tv god, not to raise anything upto a place of worship that controls your life...ie fan is short for fanatic....and a lust for anything, call it habit or addiction is creating a god...

Thou shall not make unto thee any graven image- Now I know the ten commandments vary from denomination and have been altered muchly to allow crucifixes, medalliions, statues and the like, even by the so called literalists, but again, I see this as not worshipping icons, be they sports or tv shows, I think it speaks to pornography, anything that degredates our thought.

Thou shall not take the name of the Lord thy G-d in vain- As I see you with the light of Christ within, as an expression of G-d in the physical realm (in his image) if I curse you, deride you, I am indicating that this creation of God, this expression of G-d, is not worthy in some way and I am guilty of this commandment.

Remember the sabbath day and keep it holy- Now I know Jesus released us regarding this, yet we have Chick-a-fila a fast food restaraunt in the US that is closed on Sundays....and of course we took Sunday as the sabbath since Saturday was taken, so the Muslims took Friday...us litteralists that organized this methodology appear pretty liberal...I do see it important to not only set time aside weekly, but daily, often to create the sabbath, and devote the time....seems most of us have tossed this one....keep that hour and a half a week holy....make it another time if you can't be there on Sunday...and oh, going to church does not make one spiritual...it is an option (especially if there is a football game on)

Honor thy father and thy mother- Now of course we know who Jesus indicated was the father we should honor here...and I believe this is both and more...biological parents...whoever is raising you....whoever is taking the time to be concerned in your welfare (teachers, preachers, aunts and uncles) and then of course G-d and Mother Earth....if we don't take care of this big blue ball we've been given to play on...this is truly a sin.

[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/allynb/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg[/IMG]
Thou shall not kill- Well duh, unless of course it is war and they have resources we want, then it is all out the window. So taking human life, pretty obvious it is wrong. But what about killing creativity, enthusiasm? How many of us have had the life sucked out of us by some 'father/mother' figure who in our youth intentionally or unintentionally used words that murdered a portion of our psyche....and it has never returned....again tis a sin in my book.

Thou shall not commit adultery- again, duh, you've made marriage vows, to obvious to limit this to such a small scope. Adultery comes from adulterate, to dilute, to add a foreign substance to a pure product...don't water down your drinks for profit, don't dilute your principles, don't put up with racist jokes, insensitive talk, or sexist behaviour....stand up, state your beliefs in open court...make yourself known...otherwise you will be diluted by allowing it to go on around you...

Thou shall not steal- Makes me think of the American Indian who realized the land, the horses, was all from the creator. Can we steal if it is all G-ds? All we have comes from source. So what can we steal? I think by not giving G-d or others credit when it is due....that is stealing. When claiming owneship and not providing others with what they need to survive, that is stealing...conspicous consumption...not giving back to the community...all fall under this commandment.

Thou shall not bear false witness- Most of the world most of the time is either trying to not make themselves look bad, or make themselves look good. I should change that to Americans...I've traveled the states extensively, the world I know not of. And while most people are honest and generous to a fault (I've hitched around this country for years and put myself at the mercy of others, and never been let down, stayed in beds and made up couches in almost every state....) Despite that, when it comes to work or sports or investing....getting ahead in life... the norm is to place blame on others, take credit when it is not really due, avoid looking bad at all costs....something we need to work on.

Thou shall not covet- Envy, jealousy, grass is always greener, keeping up with the Jones's...and I wish I was smarter, more beautiful, thinner, faster, richer....if only I had the advantages that they had, if only....

I think the ten commandments are a pretty hard act to follow....and then there are those that follow a few hundred more....but is it ritual or do they take them to heart...

[Pico]

Originally Posted by taijasi

one more question. If everything's so darn literal ... then why so many parables? Are those meant to be swallowed whole, word for word, as factual events? Why not just spit it out? Why mince words? What did Christ have to say about that?

Just curious ....

Jesus was *******briliant.

He taught in parables so that many people could understand what he was talking about. He tought the literal meaning to his deciples later on when they asked him about it.

By teaching in parables the message could last throughout the ages and people 2000 years later will understand because they could relate to it. Had he taught directly all the time, the message might not be as easy to understand thousands of years down the line. Christianity is the only(?) religion that doesn't have a "holy language" reuqired to understand it. Because of this, his teaching could be translated into many languages and different cultures could understand the message he tells through stories.

[China Cat Sunflower]

I'm not sure these labels: Literal, Liberal, moderate...Christian are at all useful. If you go all the way back to find the roots of Christianity there is a wide spectrum of ideas and scripture to examine. Those who have accepted the cannonized, Catholic Bible's version of the Christ story may hold the majority position, but that is by no means the only source material, nor does it represent the entire spectrum of early Christian thought. So, the idea that anyone with notions of what it is to be Christian that fall outside the narrow perspective of the "Church" is not a "real" Christian is absurd. One does not have to subscribe to the notion of original sin, or a literal virgin birth, or even a historical death and resurrection to be a bonafide Christian. These are not the only positions available within the total spectrum of Christology.

Having to compartmentalize a literal view of the Bible so that one can hang on to notions that are incompatible with science, like virgin birth or literal creationism, for me, creates a wall between spirit and matter. It turns religion into a meaningless anachronism.

Just my thoughts.

Chris

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Pico

He tought the literal meaning to his deciples later on when they asked him about it.

Ever wonder what it might have been like ... to have been a fly on the wall while Jesus was teaching the disciples, literally?

Wait, wait ... I don't mean, like, metaphysically, if you were a fly and stuff. But, if you had the ears of a fly. What you might you have heard?



andrew