Logic and Faith: Oil and Water?

InLove · 05-23-2005, 10:10 PM

Hello, Peace to All Here--

This is an issue that seems to pop up in lots of conversations in the forum. Would anyone be interested in discussing it in more depth?

Here is a thought to start it off: To me, faith makes perfect sense. It is the ultimate Logic of Love. I see the spiritual aspect as being just as real (if not more so) than the physical. I also see the two in connection.

I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this--and I am sure there are probably similar threads somewhere, so feel free to point them out if they are not already listed.

InLove,
InPeace

truthseeker · 05-23-2005, 11:18 PM

Hey, InLove,

May I ask how you can see the connection between logic and faith?

earl · 05-24-2005, 02:11 AM

Interesting that you related faith to love, Inlove. Here's a quote re faith from 1 of my favorite Jungian writers, Thomas Moore, & favorite jungian-inspired spiritual books, "The Soul's Religion:"

"Faith...like belief, it consists more in love than knowledge, or perhaps it is just that love takes precedence. It is intutive. It is a power of the soul, not of the mind alone...It is based on the most subtle of perceptions. It is born and nurtured in the area of the third eye, the open heart, and the sensitivity of an ear tuned to mystery."

He points out in this chapter that faith, of course, is a form of trust. If we required facts to pledge our faith, it would not be faith, of course. Faith is also different from beliefs to some degree in that same regard. Belief is a statement, however ultimately erroneous or partial, of "fact." As such, it removes mystery; faith embraces it to some degree.(Perhaps the greatest act of faith would be one where a life is lived with a minimum number of beliefs

) In fact, again Moore states herein that faith does not have to have an essential specific object-but, again can be a more general attitude of trust. As such, our faith/trust may remain essentially unaltered over time, while our beliefs may come, go, and change in form.

But how is that like love? I heard somewhere that "Love" is saying "yes" to life. So, love, trust, faith, all seem to have some similar aspects.
Take care, Earl

lunamoth · 05-24-2005, 02:41 AM

Interesting question, InLove, and great take on it earl.

I especially liked this line:

Quote:

Perhaps the greatest act of faith would be one where a life is lived with a minimum number of beliefs.

As for logic and faith I agree with earl in that if you need facts and objective rationale, it is no longer faith. However, my experience is that there is a certain logic to faith, but it is a personal and internal logic, a logic of the heart rather than of the head (did someone else say that--seems too good to have come from me

).

I started an earlier thread on Faith here: http://www.comparative-religion.com/...ead.php?t=2199

but it's always good to get a fresh start on things.

peace,
lunamoth

Cerealkiller · 05-24-2005, 06:25 AM

Personally, I think that logic and faith have more in common that we are really comfortable believing. We accept the whole world on faith, including logic. I think that faith underpins our entire existence. It is through faith that we believe logic can yield results.

Paladin · 05-24-2005, 03:48 PM

Lunamoth,

That quote was from you! Read Emerson's Self Reliance and you will remember how wonderful an expression of God you are.

Cerealkiller,

What a profound way of looking at logic and faith, I think you hit it on the head.
On our journey of the upward spiral, logic and love are traveling companions. As consciousness expands logic is not destroyed only trancended, and in its place is a higher logic, one based on revealed or discovered reallities undreamt of by the lower consciousness. This is the meaning of "Level Confusion" and the unreality of conflict in the idea of absolute and relative truth.

To the mystic, logic has its place. There are meditative techniques which use the argumentative method to build up to the place where an "ah ha!" experience takes place. It is just another road up the mountain.

Peace,

Mark

InLove · 05-24-2005, 03:55 PM

Very interesting replies coming in! I hope they keep coming.

Quote:

Originally posted by truthseeker

Quote:

May I ask how you can see the connection between logic and faith?

I guess I could answer you in about a thousand ways--I will think about how best to word my thoughts. In the meantime, I would be interested in whether you do or do not see a connection, and why.

InPeace,
InLove

truthseeker · 05-24-2005, 10:53 PM

I never really thought much about it that way, that is what is going to make this a good topic of discussion.

I do, though, like how Cerealkiller put it - Welcome to CR, Cerealkiller! (Um, interesting name...)

joserafael · 05-25-2005, 07:28 PM

Hi guys/gals. Well, I do think that logic and faith are like oil and water. But what this means to me is that it's all about balance. They’re completely repelled and complementary opposites. There can’t be one without the other. It’s part of the law of opposites that you see all over nature: action-reaction, cause-effect, positive-negative, yin-yang, whatever… On one extreme you have hardcore religious fundamentalists who are guided by pure faith. On the other you have hardcore atheists who are guided by pure logic and reasoning. When guided completely by any of the extremes you turn into fanatism and claim to know and impose the one and only truth. I think it’s inevitable to “zig-zag” between both opposites, kind of like a pendulum in motion. Personally, I have to accept that lately I’ve been more on the logic side, but I’m subconsciously aware that it’s all about balance…

lunamoth · 05-25-2005, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joserafael

Hi guys/gals. Well, I do think that logic and faith are like oil and water. But what this means to me is that it's all about balance. They’re completely repelled and complementary opposites. There can’t be one without the other. It’s part of the law of opposites that you see all over nature: action-reaction, cause-effect, positive-negative, yin-yang, whatever… On one extreme you have hardcore religious fundamentalists who are guided by pure faith. On the other you have hardcore atheists who are guided by pure logic and reasoning. When guided completely by any of the extremes you turn into fanatism and claim to know and impose the one and only truth. I think it’s inevitable to “zig-zag” between both opposites, kind of like a pendulum in motion. Personally, I have to accept that lately I’ve been more on the logic side, but I’m subconsciously aware that it’s all about balance…

Hey joserafael, I agree with what you say above. But, instead of a balancing act I think of it as a dance in which both partners must move together to make it work, and when it does work it is sublime.

lunamoth

joserafael · 05-25-2005, 08:21 PM

Hi lunamoth. That's another good way to put it! I agree with you.

...may be some trouble if both partners have two left feet and a bad ear for music

.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine · 05-26-2005, 04:43 AM

InLove

It depends on what you mean by "logic". I mean, are you talking about the philosophy "logic", which deals with things that can be proven or disproven/things have a "truth value" (true/false[formal logic doesn't have "grey areas"])?

Faith cannot be proven one way or the other (something can be "true" to one person but "false" to another.)

Personally I think they are seperate but complimentary ideologies (what one doesn't cover, the other does.)

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

Cerealkiller · 05-26-2005, 04:45 AM

I really have trouble with the idea of logic and faith in opposition. Logic exists as a human construct of rules and symbols. There is no objective truth to logic, and even if there is, there is no way to demonstrate without appealing to logic itself. Quite simply, we have no objective basis for our belief in logic.

Quahom1 · 05-26-2005, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerealkiller

I really have trouble with the idea of logic and faith in opposition. Logic exists as a human construct of rules and symbols. There is no objective truth to logic, and even if there is, there is no way to demonstrate without appealing to logic itself. Quite simply, we have no objective basis for our belief in logic.

Actually logic is a universal construct, based upon natural rules. Logic is purely objective and based on given focal points that are considered accepted. Faith on the otherhand is purely subjective. Our belief in logic was proven by infants in the 70s, when placed on a clear plexiglass screen, and attempts to coax the infants/toddlers across the clear screen failed. (The floor is lower than I am, I don't care what I feel beneath my knees and hands, the floor is lower than I am. I'm not going there).

To a blind child...no problem...if I feel it I can work with it.

Both logical thoughts based on objective facts. Problem is that dominant sensory perception of one is different than the other. Who is to say one is right and the other is wrong?

Faith, on the other hand...supercedes logic sometimes. Mom can coax the toddler to cross the screen (like Peter walking on water). Or the blind child can go through a matrix by listening to the sound of Mom's voice.

There is no logic in that...but it works.

v/r

Q

Cerealkiller · 05-26-2005, 08:19 AM

The experiment you described does nothing to prove logic. In fact, if anything, it undermines logic. The "sighted" children made a non-logical decision based on emotional preference for a sense. Logic would dictate that if you feel someting it is there, despite appearances to the contrary. Emotion says, I cannot feel it, I am scared, I won't move.

That is, however, beside the point.
"Actually logic is a universal construct, based upon natural rules."

What are these natural rules you speak of, and how can they be proven? There is no good reason to believe in the functions of logical thinking, that does not derive from the rules of logic. One cannot use the rules of an unproven system to prove the system; it would be akin to the old argument that the Bible is true, because it says it is true, and the Bible is true so what it says must be right.