Luke 18 Parable- shall he find faith faith on the earth?

[Bandit]

LukeAnd he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;

Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:

And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.

And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;

Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.

And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.

And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Rev 14:12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.


What do you guys see in this parable in Luke?
Would you say the verses from Revelations can be compared to that in Luke?

And what do you feel Jesus meant when he said,
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Thanks for any replies and take your time with it.

[Bandit]

I will go first, then anyone can jump in anytime.

I see this judge in the parable is mortal and he is unjust because he has no reverence for God or people. The same way, a mortal judge gets weary of the same 'situation' so will the righteous judge.

Why he is using WIDOW, I am not sure except that she is some way(s) about the elect. I am thinking widow in terms as mature and older, knowing Jesus in spirit but not remarried to the things of the world.
(HELP ME OUT HERE)

The widow is asking to be avenged (retaliate, punish) the adversary in which is really giving her a very hard time. The elect is crying out day and night asking for the righteous judge to execute and rise up in her stead against her adversary (the devil and the world). God remains patient with this widow. (the elect)

Then Jesus tells us YES- God will avenge them. How?
Speedily- (soon, at once, quickly, suddenly)

The word nevertheless almost makes it appear that the answer to his question is NO and the way he akss it it kind of in a sad way.
But when we read the parable and with what we see in Revelations the answer is YES- He WILL find some faith on earth.

Patience of the saints-endurance, continuing, waiting.
Faith of the saints- assurance, fidelity, consistancy, relying on Jesus.

What is the patience of the saints?
THEY THAT KEEP- to reguard from loss of injury, figuratively to keep unmarried as a widow.

KEEP the commandments of God and what else?
the FAITH in Jesus.

What else I am seeing is old Lucifer using one of his best tricks- DOUBT.
He is using it in a tremendous way today, by seperating our faith into many different divisions. I see the devil trying his best to divide the church and infect it through doubt. New Christianity ideas this and that. Throw in some of this uncredibility to your faith, break a couple of commandments here and there, no one will know. Then the old trick--- the bible is not all true---- filters through our midst. Then the lie of there is no God and there is no devil pops up. Then the lie that Jesus never exisited and blah blah blah...


Here it is 2005! and we are still waiting, keeping His commanments and our faith in Jesus . That is awesome to me.

Remain steadfast and rooted in the Word of God clear up to the end. We will be delivered saints.
So, it is faith, patience and his commandments.

A widow holds on tight to what she has. She does not run to marry another. A widow stays steadfast in her wisdom through the years and no one is going to confuse her or make her believe a lie, cause she has been around the block a few times.

Anyone else wanna add or share what they see, It will be appreciated in keeping our faith for the soon coming King.

[Virtual_Cliff]

I guess the widow is crying out for justice against the person who murdered her husband. What is difficult? Jesus is saying "Don't think you can escape the consequences if you behave badly".

Don't feel bad about doubt. You can't believe if you have no doubt. Banishing doubt is a sure sign of weakness of faith. Face up to your doubts - don't deny them, then grow.

Peace,
VC

[Faithfulservant]

Ok in reading Luke 18 I took into consideration both of the parables that were written. I believe the first parable of the widow is teaching us to maintain prayer in faith till Jesus comes. The second parable warns us of being over-confident in our prayer. I think that it warns us not to feel righteous amongst others lest we become proud and arrogant. We are to be humble before the Lord. I love this chapter also because it reminds us to come to him with childlike innocence and faith. In revelation it also tells us to pray constantly that we might be found worthy of being redeemed when Christ comes I think that also points to us that we not become too confident in our own efforts.

I think the verses of Revelation that you posted can be compared also to these warnings and commands. pray constantly. maintain your faith in Christ. Dont be arrogant and proud.

Thank you for the interesting study Bandit

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Ok in reading Luke 18 I took into consideration both of the parables that were written. I believe the first parable of the widow is teaching us to maintain prayer in faith till Jesus comes. The second parable warns us of being over-confident in our prayer. I think that it warns us not to feel righteous amongst others lest we become proud and arrogant. We are to be humble before the Lord. I love this chapter also because it reminds us to come to him with childlike innocence and faith. In revelation it also tells us to pray constantly that we might be found worthy of being redeemed when Christ comes I think that also points to us that we not become too confident in our own efforts.

I think the verses of Revelation that you posted can be compared also to these warnings and commands. pray constantly. maintain your faith in Christ. Dont be arrogant and proud.

Thank you for the interesting study Bandit

Faithful Servant,That is my favorite part of the chapter too. Coming to Jesus with childlike faith. I also thank you for how you put that to my attention that we not become too confident in our own efforts. Turning to God, just as the widow did to let him avenge and help us in our efforts.

We can do the second parable there also if you want to. ? I see how they go together, the same way you do.

Luke18:15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

I guess the widow is crying out for justice against the person who murdered her husband. What is difficult? Jesus is saying "Don't think you can escape the consequences if you behave badly".

Don't feel bad about doubt. You can't believe if you have no doubt. Banishing doubt is a sure sign of weakness of faith. Face up to your doubts - don't deny them, then grow.

Virtual_Cliff, I have never thought of the possibility of the widows husband being murdered by the adversary. Good insight.

When I see faith, I see " I can win, I will win and I have already won"
When I see doubt I see "I might win and I might lose."
Faith is a pure substance to me and if I allow doubt mixed with faith I end up with a wobbling effect of maybe or maybe not.
Childlike faith has no doubt in it.
I am seeing doubt as a hesitation, wavering, perplexed and even discerning.

Are you seeing doubt as being aware of obstacles that we overcome? and that is why you say face the doubts and grow?

[Virtual_Cliff]

OK Bandit. I will expand a bit. First, just a boring technicality: we are only talking about one parable - the rest is not stories but straight teaching. Childlike faith is faith that is not based on our supposed cleverness but on God's grace. It is good for that reason. A faith that has never been taken out of its box, because it might get broken, is useless. I believe that God wants us to think - that is why he gave us intelligence. He wants us to think and then with all our thought to choose him. If a man keeps his wife locked inside the house, what is her faithfulness worth? But if he allows her complete freedom to socialise and she still remains faithful then he knows how much she loves him.

I don't want you to be reckless, Bandit. Go carefully and prayerfully - don't bite off more than you can chew. Keep your heart true and don't be afraid.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Virtual_Cliff

OK Bandit. I will expand a bit. First, just a boring technicality: we are only talking about one parable - the rest is not stories but straight teaching. Childlike faith is faith that is not based on our supposed cleverness but on God's grace. It is good for that reason. A faith that has never been taken out of its box, because it might get broken, is useless. I believe that God wants us to think - that is why he gave us intelligence. He wants us to think and then with all our thought to choose him. If a man keeps his wife locked inside the house, what is her faithfulness worth? But if he allows her complete freedom to socialise and she still remains faithful then he knows how much she loves him.

I don't want you to be reckless, Bandit. Go carefully and prayerfully - don't bite off more than you can chew. Keep your heart true and don't be afraid.

I see what you are saying, but I have not thought of it like that for a long time. The childlike faith is what 'gets us in' so to speak, then the doubt and all the other things come along so we can expand and excercise our faith to its fullest potential. Kind of like USE WITH CAUTION.

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by Virtual_Cliff

OK Bandit. I will expand a bit. First, just a boring technicality: we are only talking about one parable - the rest is not stories but straight teaching. Childlike faith is faith that is not based on our supposed cleverness but on God's grace. It is good for that reason. A faith that has never been taken out of its box, because it might get broken, is useless. I believe that God wants us to think - that is why he gave us intelligence. He wants us to think and then with all our thought to choose him. If a man keeps his wife locked inside the house, what is her faithfulness worth? But if he allows her complete freedom to socialise and she still remains faithful then he knows how much she loves him.

I don't want you to be reckless, Bandit. Go carefully and prayerfully - don't bite off more than you can chew. Keep your heart true and don't be afraid.

Nice point. Thanks

[Basstian]

Rev 14:12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The parable another reference to the wisdom of God being so much higher than the wisdom of men.
will Jesus find true believers when he comes ?

I am going to sound very legalistic here and that is my intent.
Where are the people of God that adhere to the commandments I am not talking about what I see as the watered down version traditions of men where we get to sit and change warp and completely throw out any that make our life difficult
I am not talking about the ones added for the benifit of keeping a full church pew.
I am talking about the very point blank Ten handed down by God to his people
the ones that in the New covenant were written on the hearts of men.
Or will he find a people that have been carried away buy strange doctrines that come from a "peace treaty" made with pagens where you add a little of this and remove a little of that and presto you have a religion and call it Christian (stated not to offend but just as a view)
Jesus said but in vain they do worship me teaching for doctrine the commandments of men
and in another vrese If they hear not Moses and the prophets neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead.
I find the wording of the last part of that verse very important the faith of Jesus why didnt it use the word ' in' so many read it that way.
The faith of Jesus was the way He believed.
The Old testament did not seem to scare Jesus and the apostles the way it does people today Knowing we have a saviour that paid the price for transgression gives us freedom from the law of Sin and Death (very similiar to the Law of Gravity a natural thing) not a freedom from the Law of God.
I believe not one dot of the I or cross of the T has or will Change
How does modren day Christianity line up with the Beliefs Jesus had the Faith of Jesus
I look and dont have to wonder why he said Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
a very valid question
Proverbs 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Call me a legalist say I am putting myself under the Law and am wrong in doing so I try to hold to the truths as I read them I have grace when I fail thanks be to God

[Faithfulservant]

I cant speak for others but I personally am not afraid of the OT. When I read the OT Im forever grateful for what Jesus endured for me. I break one commandment and I am guilty of them all. I praise God for sacrificing his only Son so that I may have eternity with him. I praise Jesus for being my advocate to the Father for his continual forgiveness of my sins. I praise the Holy Spirit for being my guide my interpreter and the voice in ear that wont allow me to sin willfully.. I cant even take the pen from the bank without getting a mental nudge. I praise him for being my link to the Father.

I praise God for the great measure of faith that he has given me.

Do you know my favorite part of reading the OT is? Finding Jesus.. Everytime I find a scripture with Jesus in it I write his name Jesus and draw a little heart <3 in the margin. Its amazing how often he appears in the OT.

[Faithfulservant]

Im bumping this thread because I had to go back and pinch myself and Im wondering if anyone else knows what I mean?

What happened?

Im so so so sad.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Im bumping this thread because I had to go back and pinch myself and Im wondering if anyone else knows what I mean?

What happened?

Im so so so sad.

I think I know what you mean and it makes me sad too.

[seattlegal]

For another perspective, please consider James 2

1 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. 2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes, 3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, “You sit here in a good place,” and say to the poor man, “You stand there,” or, “Sit here at my footstool,” 4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?
5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? 7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,”[b] also said, “Do not murder.”[c]Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Bandit

Faithful Servant,That is my favorite part of the chapter too. Coming to Jesus with childlike faith. I also thank you for how you put that to my attention that we not become too confident in our own efforts. Turning to God, just as the widow did to let him avenge and help us in our efforts.

We can do the second parable there also if you want to. ? I see how they go together, the same way you do.

Luke18:15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

Virtual_Cliff, I have never thought of the possibility of the widows husband being murdered by the adversary. Good insight.

When I see faith, I see " I can win, I will win and I have already won"
When I see doubt I see "I might win and I might lose."
Faith is a pure substance to me and if I allow doubt mixed with faith I end up with a wobbling effect of maybe or maybe not.
Childlike faith has no doubt in it.
I am seeing doubt as a hesitation, wavering, perplexed and even discerning.

Are you seeing doubt as being aware of obstacles that we overcome? and that is why you say face the doubts and grow?

Doubt, however, is a weakness in our faith. It is a telltale sign that we need to exercise that area and grow stronger and healthier.

Doubt is needed, because it helps us to grow stronger in faith (by getting past or through the doubt).

In Highschool, there was a Senior named John. Though a very good athelete, he did not fit in tight with the the other guys in his gym class, because they were foot ball players, and John swam for the school team.

One day, when gym class began, the students found a single suspended hand ring about 10 feet off the floor, and below it a set of foam mats. Next to the mats was a harness attached to a rope which ran to a double pulley in the ceiling and back to the floor. In back of the mats was a spring board. The coach/gym teacher came out and said "Today, we are going for the brass ring", then explained the rules.

With harness attached, and the rope being held by the class, a person would run and spring off the board and try to catch the brass ring. The object was to focus comepletely on catching the ring, and letting the class holding the harness rope keep the ring catcher from falling to the ground, should he miss the ring.

At first there were quite a few misses, but the class held the harness rope tight so no one landed on the floor. This of course gave everyone a sense of comradarie and a part in helping the ring catcher gain confidence. John was right their with the rest of the class holding the rope, while one by one the other class mates eventually caught the ring, and the cheers of his peers.

Finally it was John's turn. He wanted that ring, and he wanted to catch it on the first try. He had seen and participated in maintaining the harness rope, so knew his class mates would hold him up if he missed. He began his run and launched from the spring board...

John launched so hard, he flew over the ring, barely grabbed it and tried to keep hold but his body was moving out of countrol through the air. Everything happened so fast, people were shouting, and John was on the gym floor (past the mats) staring at the ceiling, his arm broken.

John's swim season/career was over, and so was his trust in his class mates. Whether by accident or deliberateness, they hadn't held the rope for him and it cost him dearly.

John's arm healed, and in the second half of his school year he took a student/teacher position in the gym, assisting the coach with other student classes. Of the many events the students participated in, there was the "brass ring" grab too. John, oversaw this event, but he insisted that he always be part of the team that held the harness rope. The coach, being a wise man, knew there was much more going on in John's mind than safety for the ring catcher. There was doubt, and faith, and it was a bad combination, for the wrong reasons. John doubted the others could do the job and had faith that he was the only one who could be trusted not to let the ring catcher fall.

One morning, before school began, the coach walked into the gym and saw John gazing at the "brass ring", just staring at it. The coach quietly walked up to John, harness rope in hand. "You're not alone. I'm here John". John, smiled and shook his head then started to walk away. The coach quietly said, "You may fall John, but I will not let you hit the ground."

So John put on the harness. He ran for the spring board and launched for the ring, but his focus was not on the the ring, but on the floor, and he missed it and fell, and hung suspended a few feet off the wood surface of the gym floor.

The coach helped him out of the harness, and smiled. "One day, you will reach for the ring and will catch it, because you'll realize you are not alone, and you won't be allowed to hit the ground, just like you wouldn't let the other kids hit the ground."

John graduated and went off to college, then the war started, and John enlisted. Because of his skills and strength as a swimmer, he was assigned to recon with special forces, and found himself in the mountains of the enemy.

The "mountaineers" job was to comb the mountains for caves that the enemy could hide in. This required scaling and repelling up and down face cliffs as well as rigging zip lines to cross gulleys and chasms.

During one such patrol, the team John was part of was ambushed by the enemy hiding in two such caves. The fire fight was intense and John got seperated from the rest of his team, with several enemy fighters hot on his tail, as he tried to make it back to base camp, where re-enforcements would come to his aid. As he rounded the base of a sheer face and onto a cliff hanger (ledge), he realized he had no where else to go, no place to hide, and no way to go back.

Then he saw the "zip line" stretching across the gulch. But the zip line's hand hold was hanging over the gulch, ten feet away from the edge he was standing on. The enemy fighters were closing in fast, their voices echoing across the gulch.

And there was another voice, familiar and trusting that said, "One day, you will reach for the ring and will catch it, because you'll realize you are not alone, and you won't be allowed to hit the ground, just like you wouldn't let the other kids hit the ground..."

John jumped for the ring...

[greymare]

AND????????????????????????????????????
Dont stop there............

KK, good story..........