Many Iranian lay societies are dedicated to persecuting Baha`i's

[Popeyesays]

H®OJJATIYA,aShi¿ite religious lay association founded by the charismatic cleric Shaikh Mahámud H®alabi (q.v) to defend Islam against the Bahai missionary activities. H®ojjatiya exerted considerable, albeit indirect and unintended, influence on the education and world-view of the lay elite leadership of the 1979 Islamic revolution. The association was founded in the aftermath of the coup d'e‚tat of 1953 (q.v.). The explicit goal of H®ojjatiya was to train cadres for the "scientific defense" of Shi¿ite Islam in the face of the Bahai theological challenge (author's interview with Mahámud H®alabi, July 1994). Bahai missionaries (moballeg@s) argued that Shi¿a's awaited savior (Mahdi, also referred to as Hazµrat-e H®ojjat [qq.v.]) had already emerged and that Islam had been superceded by the Bahai faith. H®ojjatiya sought to defend the Shi¿ite position based on both Islamic and Bahai texts. H®alabi's own sensitivity to this controversy stems from a personal encounter. As a seminarian he and his colleague Sayyed ¿Abba@s ¿Alawi had been approached by a Bahai missionary, who had succeeded in persuading the latter to convert. Alarmed by this experience, H®alabi abandoned the normal course of his studies and immersed himself in the study of Bahai history and original texts with the intention of composing a comprehensive Islamic response to the Bahai challenge. H®alabi's original plan to train a group of seminarians to discharge these duties was rebuffed by the clerical establishment in Qom. H®alabi then embarked upon recruiting a corps of volunteer lay disciples adept at both substantive arguments and debating skills. This is the group that came to be known, after the Islamic revolution, as Anjoman-e háojjatiya .

Although the primary stages of H®alabi's project evolved in his native Maæhad, he met with little enthusiasm there. It took him six months to recruit and train his first serious student (author's interview with Mahámud H®alabi, May 1978). H®alabi's decision to move to Tehran proved a strategic success. The first circle of his students in Tehran were comprised of religious merchants and professionals (author's interview with H®osayn Ta@jeri, June, 2002). They, in turn, succeeded in recruiting from a talented pool of ardent students from religious as well as secular high schools. By the late 1960s the second generation of H®ojjatiya recruits had entered universities and embarked upon modernizing and standardizing the management of the association. Therefore, the early 1970s witnessed organizational reforms within the association that reflected increasing complexity and division of labor. Graduates of the basic instruction on Shi¿ite and Bahai history and theology were recruited in specialist teams of operations. The latter included: The Guidance Team (Goruh-e eræa@d), that was charged with debating Bahai missionaries, persuading Bahais to return to Islam, and neutralizing the effects of Bahai missionary activity on those exposed to it. The Instruction Team (Goruh-e tadris) along with the Authorship Team (Goruh-e nega@-reæ) jointly worked to standardize instructional material and levels. These came to include basic instruction (pa@ya), the intermediary training (vi‘a), and the graduate training (naqd-e Iqa@n; q.v.). Most of the instructional material was distributed, in typed and copied form (poly-copy) in classes that met weekly in private homes across the country. They were retrieved within a week so that no copies would leave the provenance of the association. Students were instructed not to share or discuss the material with outsiders. The public speaking team (Goruh-e sokòanra@ni) organized weekly public gatherings in various venues that featured trained H®ojjatiya speakers discussing Shi¿ite theology, critiquing Bahai positions, and fielding questions. The intelligence team, named the Investigation Team (Goruh-e taháqiq) operated, in three distinct regiments, as a fifth column within the Bahai ranks and succeeded in thoroughly penetrating the Bahai hierarchy. Unbeknownst to Bahai's, some members of the H®ojjatiya had advanced to the rank of prominent Bahai missionaries (author's interview with Aság@ar S®a@deqi, June 2000). There were, also, smaller service-providing units within H®ojjatiya such as the bureau of contact with foreign countries, bureau of libraries and archives, and bureau of publications. Thus, the most salient specialists in the association were known, in the jargon of H®ojjatiya, as: polemical activists (moba@rez), public speakers (sokòanra@n), instructors (modarres), and intelligence operatives (mo-háaqqeq). Most full-fledged H®ojjatiya members carried out at least two of the above duties in the course of weekly meetings. Bahais, reacted to the emergence of H®ojjatiya by adopting a more defensive and reserved posture and by avoiding open debates and confrontations. This response further emboldened the H®ojjatiya members and reassured them of the effectiveness of their approach (author's interview with Mansáur Pahlava@n, August 2001). The organization steadily grew and by the early 1970s had spread throughout Iran and a few neighboring countries such as Pakistan and India. Indeed, in certain parts of Iran, H®ojjatiya grew disproportionately to the Bahai threat and bred resentment among other Islamic organizations, that intended to mimic its success or to recruit from the same pool of talented religious youths (account of Ha@æem AÚqa@jari about his involvement with H®ojjatiya).Iranica.com - H®OJJATIYAHow long have you been a member, Irman?

Regards,
Scott

[Mick]

What incredibly unexplainable efforts we see here by right wing zealots. Just how much energy is being expended by crazed dogmatic wolves. How sad that somebody would make a career attacking the Message of God. Can it get any more confusing?

Mick

[Mick]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

How long have you been a member, Imran?

Regards,
Scott

I apologize, but I quoted this because it got lost in the body of the article. I think it is a fair question that I would like to know the answer to as well. I just asked our friend what organization he represented, before I read this post.

Mick

[Promethium]

Book excerpt: Debating Muslims: Cultural Dialogues in Postmodernity and Tradition

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Mick

I apologize, but I quoted this because it got lost in the body of the article. I think it is a fair question that I would like to know the answer to as well. I just asked our friend what organization he represented, before I read this post.
Mick

Thanks Mick:

I am only an humble individual - no organisation, no nothing. I have read about the Hojjatiyyeh - the Western media machine ensures that I read about it!

I genuinely believe the remark from Scott is unwarranted and reeks of prejudice. And to think that I am labelled as prejudiced...

Warm regards, as always

[Mick]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Thanks Mick:

I am only an humble individual - no organisation, no nothing. I have read about the Hojjatiyyeh - the Western media machine ensures that I read about it!

I genuinely believe the remark from Scott is unwarranted and reeks of prejudice. And to think that I am labelled as prejudiced...

Warm regards, as always

Oh, my. Prejudice. Hmmm. I am answering for Scott and may be presumptuous by doing so. But, I have done worse and been accused of even worse than I have done.

By definition, prejudice is "A partiality that prevents objective consideration of an issue or situation." Personally, I cannot be objective when considering the horror put upon a people, including the physical torture, mental anguish, and complete disregard of a loving populace such as the Iranian Baha'is. Therefore, you may call me prejudiced against these actions and anybody that facilitates them, accepts them or supports them.

I will discriminate against them and will confront them as I am able to. I will class them as "the ungodly" and keep from being near them. I will show my prejudice and explain it to anybody that shows curiosity.

If your feelings were hurt, Imran, so was mine; and every time I read the history of the Baha'i Faith in Iran, I risk tears. Every-time one of the news groups I subscribe to concerning the Baha'i Faith sends me a new article informing me of new atrocities in Iran, I tremble with pain.

What kind of people/government would destroy the Holy places of religion? Why would any of the leaders of Iran joyfully destroy the House of the Bab? I mean joyfully. I have seen the pictures of Iranian officials in uniform swinging a sledge hammer, their face filled with glee. Why would they put a parking lot over this site? What are they afraid of? What are you afraid of?

What is the difference between these government led pogroms and those of the Nazis against the Jews which are so abhorred by the people of the world?

Yeah, I'm prejudiced.

Mick

[Popeyesays]

The Hojjatiyyeh was always peaceful and never participated in the active persecution of Baha`i's. The found of the organization always said "That is nor our way!" That attitude of sufferance cost the Hojjantiyyeh big in the end when Khomeini removed his sanction from the organization and using veiled threats suggested that members of a group which wanted to limit their opposition to the Baha`i's to reasonable debate might become counter-revolutionary thought. The founder of the organization wisely submitted to Khomeini and formally disbanded the organization in the late seventies or early eighties.

There are other groups of course more in line with Khomeini's policies happy to tear down Baha`i Holy Places and physically intimidate Baha`i's.

So, Imran I was suggesting you might be a member of Hojjatiyyeh as a compliment. I thought your timidity about saying anything against the Iranian government might be submission to the dissolution of the organization. Do you belong to one of the other, more militant abti-Baha'i groups instead?

Regards,
Scott

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Mick

Oh, my. Prejudice. Hmmm. I am answering for Scott and may be presumptuous by doing so. But, I have done worse and been accused of even worse than I have done.

By definition, prejudice is "A partiality that prevents objective consideration of an issue or situation." Personally, I cannot be objective when considering the horror put upon a people, including the physical torture, mental anguish, and complete disregard of a loving populace such as the Iranian Baha'is. Therefore, you may call me prejudiced against these actions and anybody that facilitates them, accepts them or supports them.

I will discriminate against them and will confront them as I am able to. I will class them as "the ungodly" and keep from being near them. I will show my prejudice and explain it to anybody that shows curiosity.

If your feelings were hurt, Imran, so was mine; and every time I read the history of the Baha'i Faith in Iran, I risk tears. Every-time one of the news groups I subscribe to concerning the Baha'i Faith sends me a new article informing me of new atrocities in Iran, I tremble with pain.

What kind of people/government would destroy the Holy places of religion? Why would any of the leaders of Iran joyfully destroy the House of the Bab? I mean joyfully. I have seen the pictures of Iranian officials in uniform swinging a sledge hammer, their face filled with glee. Why would they put a parking lot over this site? What are they afraid of? What are you afraid of?

What is the difference between these government led pogroms and those of the Nazis against the Jews which are so abhorred by the people of the world?

Yeah, I'm prejudiced.

Mick

Ok, That suits me fine. We all are prejudiced I guess in our own ways.

Regards,

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

The Hojjatiyyeh was always peaceful and never participated in the active persecution of Baha`i's. The found of the organization always said "That is nor our way!" That attitude of sufferance cost the Hojjantiyyeh big in the end when Khomeini removed his sanction from the organization and using veiled threats suggested that members of a group which wanted to limit their opposition to the Baha`i's to reasonable debate might become counter-revolutionary thought. The founder of the organization wisely submitted to Khomeini and formally disbanded the organization in the late seventies or early eighties.

There are other groups of course more in line with Khomeini's policies happy to tear down Baha`i Holy Places and physically intimidate Baha`i's.

So, Imran I was suggesting you might be a member of Hojjatiyyeh as a compliment. I thought your timidity about saying anything against the Iranian government might be submission to the dissolution of the organization. Do you belong to one of the other, more militant abti-Baha'i groups instead?

Regards,
Scott

No organisation, no nothing. Period.

Regards,

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

No organisation, no nothing. Period.

Regards,

So in your opinion the Hutu-Tutsi war of mutual anihilation was just something you do not feel a need to comment upon. The Turkish annihilation of Armenian populations. The mutual pogroms in Bosnia and Hertzogovina, the Nazi Holocaust of World War Two are just all beneath your notice?

Why should we believe your denial of membership in any anti-bahai organization--after all you will practice taqiyyih if you have to.

Regards,
Scott

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

So in your opinion the Hutu-Tutsi war of mutual anihilation was just something you do not feel a need to comment upon. The Turkish annihilation of Armenian populations. The mutual pogroms in Bosnia and Hertzogovina, the Nazi Holocaust of World War Two are just all beneath your notice?

Why should we believe your denial of membership in any anti-bahai organization--after all you will practice taqiyyih if you have to.

Regards,
Scott

You are absolutely correct. If I wanted to comment on all those items, I would find another forum - I would not be here.

Is this your way of telling me that you are not going to answer my questions?

Also dont call me anti-Bahai just because I asked you some questions which you did not like. Nevertheless, I have no issue with that. You may call me whatever you like as long you can answer my questions (especially about the Bab) and I can learn from you.

Regards,

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

You are absolutely correct. If I wanted to comment on all those items, I would find another forum - I would not be here.

Is this your way of telling me that you are not going to answer my questions?

Also dont call me anti-Bahai just because I asked you some questions which you did not like. Nevertheless, I have no issue with that. You may call me whatever you like as long you can answer my questions (especially about the Bab) and I can learn from you.

Regards,

More tap-dancing.

Regards,
Scott

[BruceDLimber]

Hello.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Also dont call me anti-Bahai just because I asked you some questions....

Please remember that we don't call you anti-Baha'i because you ask questions: sincere questions are always most welcome!

The more the pity, the reason you are viewed as anti-Baha'i is because YOU run such a web site whose purpose is put-down and attack of the Baha'i Faith! :-(

And I might also add that you were banned from Wikipedia for this exact same reason: posting anti-Baha'i links.

Just the facts, little as you seem to want to admit them.

Bruce

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Hello.
Please remember that we don't call you anti-Baha'i because you ask questions: sincere questions are always most welcome!

The more the pity, the reason you are viewed as anti-Baha'i is because YOU run such a web site whose purpose is put-down and attack of the Baha'i Faith! :-(

And I might also add that you were banned from Wikipedia for this exact same reason: posting anti-Baha'i links.

Just the facts, little as you seem to want to admit them.

Bruce

You may want to read my web site once again - there are atleast 3 places wherein I have specifically mentioned that if any of the references which I have placed or quoted, if found incorrect, I will be happy to change it - and publicly acknowledge it as well.

As regards Wikipedia, it was a Bahai who removed the link to my web site. I could not understand why - I simply reminded him of the Bahai principle of independent investigation of truth. But it did not make sense to him.

What do I say on my web site? I say that -

The Bahai Faith came out the the Babi dispensation. The Bahais claim that the Bab is the Mahdi of Islam and by his appearance, Islam has come to an end.

But the Bab does not seem to fulfill any of the prophecies of the Mahdi.

In fact in 4 books - all of which are acknowledged by the Bahais as being the works of the Bab, but vulnerable to forgery - the Bab claims that some person else was the Mahdi. In fact he calls the Mahdi as Mohammed Ibnil Hasan with the titles as Baqiyatullah, Al Qaem, Sahebazzaman. He recognises the Mahdi as bearing the same agnomen as the Holy Prophet - Abul Qasim. He acknowledges that the Mahdi has 2 occultations and the 4 deputies of the Mahdi in the minor one. For all you know, the Bab was referring to Mohammed Ibnil Hasan as the "One Whom Allah will Manifest" - as the one whom Allah will manifest on his reappearance.

Read my web site - see if there is any thing which I have said on my own - all of it is coming out of books which are available on the web from Bahai and non- Bahai web sites both. I have even put down the page numbers and linked it to the actual pages of the books.

So my friend, there is nothing to hide and no facts to run away from.

I am the one cajoling the Bahais for responses to these questions - read my posts from the first to the last - you will find the same thread. And what do I get to hear from the Bahais - not one person has questioned the references. Not one. Rather I am asked about Iran, tap dancing, anto-bahai organisations, prejudice etc. I say, no problem, but answer the question please. Atleast first provide some answer before calling me anti-bahai.

Respectfully yours,

[Popeyesays]

Actually, according to the discussion on Wikipedia it was not a Baha`i who took down your website, but the practice of Wikipedia to weed out 'personal website' from being referred to as if they were encyclopedic in nature. At the same time your website was taken down many others were as well in topics far-ranging from relgion. Many Baha`i personal website were also removed as links because they had no official sanction.

Regards,
Scott