Many questions ...

Zenda71 · 04-19-2005, 10:34 PM

Hello all.

I was just at a weekend retreat and while I was supposed to be watching my breath, I was invariably thinking. (Well, not invariably exactly ... but you get my meaning.)

So ... the thought I had this ... Am I engaging in a process of rewiring my brain through meditation, thus creating another level of artifice in which I feel oceanic and peaceful (and/or joyful)? Or am I actually experiencing the true nature of being? (I was practicing shamatha/vipassana ... an exhausting technique!)

Thoughts, comments, or experiences would be most appreciated!

Metta,
Jacqui

Pathless · 04-19-2005, 10:58 PM

I don't know. But, I think that if you are having those thoughts and they are distracting you from meditation, you probably need to take a break from meditation.

Last night I was trying to sleep and I couldn't sleep because I had all of these thoughts going through my head. They were distracting me. So, I got up and took a shower, cleaned around the apartment, and drank some herbal iced tea. I was able to be much more present in doing those things than I was in my attempts to sleep, and I felt good, and eventually I was ready to crash. I slept very soundly after that. Everyone knows you can't force yourself to sleep. The harder you try, the more you work yourself up and can't sleep. I think meditation is similar.

It may be helpful if you ask yourself, "What am I meditating for?" Remember that "the true nature of being" is just a phrase, and in itself an artifice. Who's to say that you can't experience the true nature of being or something even better while cleaning someone else's nasty toilet?

Zenda71 · 04-20-2005, 01:32 AM

Hah!

Thanks Pathless. Actually, I don't find this thought distracting ... at least no more than any other thoughts (and I have many!). But it piqued my curiousity. Regardless of the answer, I feel better meditating than not so why not do it? Better that than numerous other unbeneficial activities ...

Metta,
J

Pathless · 04-20-2005, 02:27 AM

Oh, okay. I guess I misunderstood somewhat. In that case, carry on.

Zenda71 · 04-20-2005, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pathless

Oh, okay. I guess I misunderstood somewhat. In that case, carry on.

Vajradhara · 04-20-2005, 03:22 PM

Namaste Jacqui,

thank you for the post.

it's a good question. leaving aside particulars of practice for the time being, i suppose that we could say that there are two types of wiring in our heads... hard wiring and soft wiring. the hard wiring is the biological matter and the methods that it works. i'm not sure that meditation can substantially alter the morphology of the structure... though, some recent studies seem to suggest that it can.

it is my view that the soft wiring, the "habit energy" if you will, is something that we can and do change through the practice of meditation.

so.. with that disctinction in mind.. i would answer your question with both "yes" and "no"

how typically Zen, eh

the lessening of the habit energy, itself, can lead to the experience of joy and oceanic peacefulness. we need to be a bit careful that the feelings during the meditation do not, themselves, become obstacles in the praxis by becoming to enamored of them.

in my own case, i tend to grasp at previous meditive experience and compare my current session to my memories. ultimately, this is a methodology that is not going to be successful... and as such, i endeavor to be mindful that this is happening... and, when i am, the degree to which it happens is substantially lowered.

Zenda71 · 04-20-2005, 06:30 PM

Greetings Vajra.

Yes, I do this as well. In fact, I also have to be careful that what I read isn't transformed into expectation in practice. A tricky thing.

To contradict myself a bit ... which of course is perfectly natural I suppose ... my "belief" or perhaps "experience" has seemed deeper than just chemistry or wiring (as you know).

I only have this filter (i.e., my current form) with which to sift experiences. It's a bit rowdy and sometimes not entirely reliable.

Metta,
J

Vajradhara · 04-20-2005, 10:40 PM

Namaste J,

indeed... as Thich Nhat Hanh says:

Our own life is the instrument with which we experiment with truth.

Zenda71 · 04-21-2005, 10:03 PM

Very true.

Send e-mails. Attend meetings.

Padipa · 04-21-2005, 10:10 PM

Namasté everyone,

While meditating, should one continue if you experience astral projection or an out-of-body experience? I have been meditating for a while and I have begun to have these. Is this just another step of relaxation and mindfulness or should this be avoided?

farhan · 04-21-2005, 10:48 PM

Salam & peace !

I started meditating around 3 months back with some instructions from a sufi . I had to sit in a quiet & dark place for 20 minutes everyday b4 going to sleep & just tell my self once that blue lights R raining on me , & then leave my mind on its own . Not to think anything . It was difficult in the begining b/c my mind kept on wandering here & there . I asked the sufi " Why arnt U allowing me to use something to focus " . He said " if U get used to a physical thing to focus , then it will be difficult to focus without it ". Anyways time went by & after 2 months , I was able to completely empty my mind from any thought . He says a lot is still to come , this is just the begining

What I think is that we R born with a default programming . & then we override that programming with the one that our society teaches us . What society teaches us is usually a stressful pattern of thinking in which we run around external things to satisfy us or make us happy . But peace of mind lies in the default programming that we were given at birth . Ever seen a child in depression ?? or panic disorder , anexity , or other uneasy emotions ?? So with meditation we tend to re-master focusing our minds on that default programming , that helps us to keep happy , satisfied , focussed & enthusiastic , irrespective of what is hapenning in the outside world .

I have been doing it for 3 months & now I feel much more relexed & in-control than b4 . It feels like I havebeen a noisy, in-coherrent , & fastly running waterfall for my whole life , & now I have become a serene pond of calm water . Everything is calm & beautiful .

Quote:

While meditating, should one continue if you experience astral projection or an out-of-body experience? I have been meditating for a while and I have begun to have these. Is this just another step of relaxation and mindfulness or should this be avoided?

Well I havent experienced this uptil now , but according to what I have read , its just the next phase of relexation , when dream state merges with the awake state . So the best thing to do would be to let your mind go with the flow , & not try to stop it .

Btw its always better to have a teacher to guide U through these things

Padipa · 04-21-2005, 11:51 PM

Thank you farhan, for the post.

I did mention that to my meditation instructor but I'm not sure if I explained what I was experiencing very well, I'll try to talk to him again...I think you're right, it's probably just the next step towards enlightenment.

Until then...does anyone else experience these astral projections? I've heard some people can actually have out-of-body experiences naturally. Any comments?

Zenda71 · 04-22-2005, 03:31 PM

Greetings.

I practice in a Buddhist tradition, rather than a Hindu or Sufi one. I have been advised that this experience is also phenomena and to not get too attached to it. "Just sit with it" is the usual response.

It is a pretty interesting experience though.

Metta,
J

Vajradhara · 04-22-2005, 03:42 PM

Namaste,

regarding out of body or astral projection experiences... i learned to do this at a very early age.. 10 or 11 i'd suppose...

it can be a valuable experience but, as has been said, the experience, itself, can become its' own obstruction.

one of the keys for making progress in meditation, in my experience, is being very mindful of not trying to have the same meditive experience over and over or by comparing this one to another one. it's a bit of a subtle point, i'll agree, but one that seems to be quite relevant.

within the context of the Buddha Dharma, we are instructed not to become too attached to any particular experience during meditation since these experiences are, in an of themselves, empty of any self nature; there really is nothing to be attached to.

Padipa · 04-22-2005, 07:40 PM

Thank you very much Zenda71 and Vajradhara, for the replies.

My meditation instructor, when I explained it, said almost the same thing. He said not to become attatched to these images for they are illusions created by the mind. They are quite exciting experiences though.