Mark of the Beast

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by smkolins

to the extent it is a government mentioned, whatever the circumstances, I wonder what kind of government it would be? Would it resemble a monarchy? Would it have democratic forms at all?

I wonder if the Bible has any clues....

one thing for sure it is not going to be about money & fighting other countries.
that government in Is. is an eternal government that will squash & trod the wicked of earth.
are you really looking for a weak flesh & blood earthly democracy in this?

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

How do you get this gradual change out of Isaiah?

"of the increase of his government there shall be no end" - seems to refer to growth, expansion, and that it shall have no end sounds gradual to me - if it spread quickly would it not encompass everything quickly? Thus gradual.

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by Bandit

this kingdom is an eternal kingdom with eternal power & glory of the almighty God through Jesus.
not a an earthly president or religious leader with bloodshed & money on there minds.

I don't see this. If Isaiah was refering to a heavenly government how could the government expand? It shall grow without end. Where in Heaven could God's will not be done already?!

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by smkolins

I don't see this. If Isaiah was refering to a heavenly government how could the government expand? It shall grow without end. Where in Heaven could God's will not be done already?!

then just keep looking for an earthly, material, faulty government, i am not going to try & convince you.

[Bandit]

"of the increase of his government there shall be no end

shall be no end as far as i am concerned is an eternal kingdom. eternity has no end. it may have a beginning & a middle but it has no end.
the increase to me is a power above all powers a KING above all kings & that is Jesus & the kingdom of God.

but if you think someone or something else I am not going to try & convince there either. it has actually been an interesting topic, but i am not changing my mind either

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by Bandit

one thing for sure it is not going to be about money & fighting other countries.
that government in Is. is an eternal government that will squash & trod the wicked of earth.
are you really looking for a weak flesh & blood earthly democracy in this?

No. But it could be that another way this government could grow is to more faithfully reflect God's will, on earth as it is in heaven, more and more completely, once started by Jesus' Return.

And don't forget it isn't just the government that increases - peace also increases. That speaks of a transition from less peace to more, and at least partly in relation to the fact that the government established by God grows in parallel - that is to say both grow.

But in some ways it seems to clearly reflect a monarchy - there is a King, no? But perhaps beyond that - the seems to be a council of elders - similar to a Congress at least in concept, and a leader of the elders as well. But I wonder if there are other references.....

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by Bandit

i am not going to try & convince you.

I've been doing email discussions about religion for about 15 years and I have NEVER seen one person convince another.

At most I've seen people learn. Is that so much to ask? Why always defensiveness of being convinced of something?!

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by Bandit

shall be no end as far as i am concerned is an eternal kingdom. eternity has no end. it may have a beginning & a middle but it has no end.
the increase to me is a power above all powers a KING above all kings & that is Jesus & the kingdom of God.

I'll grant that's one possibility, or even one part of the combination of ways this reference can be understood. But it seems to me what is being spoken of here is a big change in the end and I can't see Heaven changing that much, and while a kind of eternity can be in this world too, that doesn't speak of a progresive, establishment, of real change such as an increasing government established by God, and a peace that grows in being of His will. That I don't see it doesn't make it not so, but I have a mind and judgement, and use it to seek understanding, and make my mind up as I go along.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by smkolins

I've been doing email discussions about religion for about 15 years and I have NEVER seen one person convince another.

At most I've seen people learn. Is that so much to ask? Why always defensiveness of being convinced of something?!

well that is pretty much what i said. you are convinced of something & so am I. you keep looking for what you are looking for & i will do the same. IOW, it would be pointless for me to add any more from here. i dont see that as being defensive, i see it more as unprofitable. sorry but i am not one to keep going over the same thing & asking questions for very long in a group discussion like this because it creates confusion. maybe if you want to talk about it, one on one someday, smkolins, that would be fine.

[smkolins]

here's an interesting quote about governments - 2nd Peter 9-10:

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled...."

I don't see it explicitly related to the government spoken of by Isaiah, but still, interesting....

[truthseeker]

The spirit has always been more controlling of the flesh. The flesh is weak. Cut off the member and it is no longer controlling. The only way to cut off the spirit is death. And we have established that the spirit is immortal. There is your monarchy. What spirit will be the head of the monarchy? Revelation tells us that.

smkolins made sense when he stated:

but beyond that - there seems to be council of elders - similiar to a Congress at least in concept, and a leader of the elders as well.

smkolins also made sense when he stated:

where in Heaven could God's will not be done already!?

The flesh doesn't seem all that immortal to me. While you and I die, the flesh lives on through offspring. But that's just me thinking out loud.

There is peace and contentment in God's will. As we understand through history and what we see in today's world, the expansion of government by land and ideology is a sign of discontentment. And it shields itself, since and before the Crusades, by the concept of intension of spreading Jesus' message.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by smkolins

"of the increase of his government there shall be no end" - seems to refer to growth, expansion, and that it shall have no end sounds gradual to me - if it spread quickly would it not encompass everything quickly? Thus gradual.

2 The people walking in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death [a]
a light has dawned.

3 You have enlarged the nation
and increased their joy;
they rejoice before you
as people rejoice at the harvest,
as men rejoice
when dividing the plunder.

4 For as in the day of Midian's defeat,
you have shattered
the yoke that burdens them,
the bar across their shoulders,
the rod of their oppressor.

5 Every warrior's boot used in battle
and every garment rolled in blood
will be destined for burning,
will be fuel for the fire.

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, [b] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.

(Isaiah 9)

Yes, I love this passage from Isaiah. Seems to me though that you are putting a rather fine literal point on the line about the increase of his government. It sounds to me like Isaiah is using the poetic language of praise, love and devotion to his Almighty God here, rather than predicting that the establishment of God's Kingdom will be a long slow process. Nevertheless, I agree that God's Kingdom is growing here on this earth.

30Again he said, "What shall we say the kingdom of God is like, or what parable shall we use to describe it? 31It is like a mustard seed, which is the smallest seed you plant in the ground. 32Yet when planted, it grows and becomes the largest of all garden plants, with such big branches that the birds of the air can perch in its shade."
(Mark 4)

Still don't see what this has to do with ID cards.

lunamoth

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by smkolins

here's an interesting quote about governments - 2nd Peter 9-10:

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled...."

I don't see it explicitly related to the government spoken of by Isaiah, but still, interesting....

So, exactly how do you find this interesting? Do you think it implies that everyone who has ever questioned, criticized, challenged or rebelled against their government is damned? Were the American forefathers sinning when they demanded and fought for independence against England?

lunamoth

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

So, exactly how do you find this interesting? Do you think it implies that everyone who has ever questioned, criticized, challenged or rebelled against their government is damned? Were the American forefathers sinning when they demanded and fought for independence against England?

lunamoth

If it were that emphatic perhaps, but certainly it is not? It pointedly speaks about "presumptiousness, self-willed" people who despise government.

Let me give an example. I work in government - specifically in k12 computer tech support. One of the difficulties is when people who don't have or take responsability for making something work or fixing it when it breaks hand us something they want us to use because obviously there is something wrong or missing or whatever. Principles, parents, hot-rod highschoolers go off and make decisions and are given license, but no responsability.

When a revolutionary wants to take up responsability, then they are part of the establishment, even if it's a new one. And responsability stomps all over the easy dreams of presumptiousness and self-willed life. Ask any parent about how much they had to change to deal with having children! But parents donate old barely working computers to schools all the time. If the school has almost nothing, that may be great but if the school has a real system most donations are a pain.

Now the balancing issue is that a beaurcracy tends to purpetuate itself for no other reason.

[BlaznFattyz]

some interesting stuff to read:

1. The star was mentioned and condemned by the God of Israel in Amos 5:26 and it was called by Him, `the star of your god, Moloch' or otherwise called `Chiun'. Reference to Amos 5:26 and the Israelites having it in the wilderness was also made in Acts 7:43. Here it was called the Star of Remphan. All these names refer to the `god' Saturn.
2. The foregoing verifies that it was therefore in existence long before the time of Solomon. He took this symbol upon himself when he went into idolatry, and it became known as the `Seal of Solomon' in Arabic magic and witchcraft.
3. There was no usage of it in Jewish circles until the 17th century when the cabalist, Isaac Luria, introduced it in Germany.
4. Mayer Amschel Bauer then used it in Germany to identify his address, consequently changing his family name to Rothschild, meaning `Red Shield', and depicting the red hexagram hanging on his door. He later incorporated it into his family coat of arms.
5. The six-pointed star or hexagram became the insignia of Zionism.
6. Hitler rose to power, using it as a badge of shame, forcing all Jews to wear it during the Nazi regime.
7. It arrived at the Knesset of the newly formed State of Israel.
8. It became the logo of the Jewish `Red Cross' called the Magen David Adom.
9. It became the centerpiece on the flag of Israel.
10. Surreptitiously, it has become the international symbol of the Jewish people and saturates the world as the Jewish Star.

The hexagram, or six pointed star, certainly has three sixes. It contains a six, within a six, within a six: 666. (Count the sides of each triangle facing the clockwise direction, the sides facing the counter-clockwise direction, and the third six - the sides of the inner hexagon).

The number seven, not the number six is God's perfect number. The symbol given to God's chosen race, as far back as Exodus is the Menorah, or seven branched candle-stick.

so why is a 6 pointed star used on the flag and not a menorah, or a burning bush to symbolize God's chosen people?