Mary as Co-Savior?

[JJM]

Originally Posted by Bandit

yes, after reading some of this i see where this was deeply off topic & deep sixing. Jesus most certainly IS moshiach & not just some sensible chap.!.
It looks like some think they are the only ones capable of interpretation of the bible & do not have the curse of death upon them.

More so, Jesus is King Of Kings, Lord of Lords, Ruler of all nations & God manifested in the flesh. & I have been washed in the blood of the Lamb.

I still do not understand how Mary is co savior. That is ok, I guess others do.

It is because she has, through here suffering and that suffering's connection to Christ’s, brought Grace from his suffering to someone, either herself or someone else. That Grace contributed in some way to that person’s acceptance of Christ and has thus contributed to their salvation. It is important to note that co doesn’t imply equality. The Latin implies something more like a helper. As a waiter is to a master chef.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by JJM

It is because she has, through here suffering and that suffering's connection to Christ’s, brought Grace from his suffering to someone, either herself or someone else. That Grace contributed in some way to that person’s acceptance of Christ and has thus contributed to their salvation. It is important to note that co doesn’t imply equality. The Latin implies something more like a helper. As a waiter is to a master chef.

ok. i think i see what you mean. it is not the same as co pilot, where she could have literally taken his place. Jesus is the only one who could do it. I really do try to understand what others are seeing.

[JJM]

Originally Posted by Bandit

ok. i think i see what you mean. it is not the same as co pilot, where she could have literally taken his place. Jesus is the only one who could do it. I really do try to understand what others are seeing.

Yes that is the concept

[wil]

Originally Posted by JJM

... we are all called to be co-redeemers with Christ. By uniting our sufferings with Christ we can receive Grace (the strength to do his will) from God for ourselves and others.

these things and more you shall do...

Originally Posted by Bandit

ok. i think i see what you mean. it is not the same as co pilot, where she could have literally taken his place. Jesus is the only one who could do it. I really do try to understand what others are seeing.

Not the only one who could do it but Jesus initiated the action for Christians?

[BlaznFattyz]

why? she was not Son of God nor did she take on the sins of the world on the cross as Saviour.

[Marsh]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

why? she was not Son of God nor did she take on the sins of the world on the cross as Saviour.

Agreed. Mary was a wonderfully faithful woman, and truly a mentor for anyone who ends up facing a difficult task for the glory of God. However, in terms of redemption, Mary is as irrelevant as anybody else is, because she is just like the rest of us: a hundred percent human. When Mary died, she faced the same fate as everybody else: irreversible death, or eternal life through Jesus Christ. Mary did not receive a free pass to heaven for being the birth mother of Jesus, nor has she been given the power to forgive sins. Certainly, she above any of us knew God, and knew how to show love for him, and likely did an amazing job ministering to others after her son's murder. Mary was a great woman, but she was a woman, and not a saviour.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Marsh

Agreed. Mary was a wonderfully faithful woman, and truly a mentor for anyone who ends up facing a difficult task for the glory of God. However, in terms of redemption, Mary is as irrelevant as anybody else is, because she is just like the rest of us: a hundred percent human. When Mary died, she faced the same fate as everybody else: irreversible death, or eternal life through Jesus Christ. Mary did not receive a free pass to heaven for being the birth mother of Jesus, nor has she been given the power to forgive sins. Certainly, she above any of us knew God, and knew how to show love for him, and likely did an amazing job ministering to others after her son's murder. Mary was a great woman, but she was a woman, and not a saviour.

Um, a "mother's love" can melt the coldest of hearts...any mother's love. This in turn has "saved" many of us. So Mary indeed has helped save folk. She just didn't do it all by herself...

[Thomas]

Hi InLove,

Something missing ...

The prefix 'co' does not necessarily infer equality, which is how it is commonly read today, and from where the erroneous assumption derives. 'Co' derives from the Latin word 'cum' which means 'with', but not 'equal to'.

So the proper theological reading of the term is the Blessed Virgin is is foremost with Christ in the work of salvation, but He alone is the work ... and we were saved on the Cross, which is His alone to bear (eternally).

It is His Resurrection that assures eternal life for us, nothing else ... without that, as Paul said, our faith is in vain

By her assent, Christ came into the world, to save it. But be in no doubt that the Catholic Church is absolutely and dogmatically emphatic on the point that Christ alone is the Redeemer, that He alone saves, and that He alone is the source of grace.

Catholic doctrine states:
"Mary gave the Redeemer, the Source of all graces, to the world, and in this way she is the channel of all graces. (Sent. certa.)"
Ott "The Fundamentals of Christian Dogma" — 'sent certa' is shorthand for 'theologically certain', that is, we are theologically certain of the fact even though it is not stated explicitly in Scripture. Our certitude comes from the fact that had she said 'no', there would be no Incarnation.

As the statement says, she, by her motherhood, is 'the channel of all grace' because though her the Son came into the world, but she is not, nor has the Church ever claimed, she is the source of that grace, or any gifts and graces of the Blessed Virgin originate with her ... every gift and grace she distributes to her spiritual children come from Him.

In her own words she is, and remains "the handmaid of the Lord" (Luke 1:38) — but through His redemptive sacrifice, she does so eternally.

+++

Salve Regina:

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,
our life, our sweetness and our hope.
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve;
to thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.

Turn then, most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us;
and after this our exile,
show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.

Pray for us O holy Mother of God,
that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

+++

If we understand her as the Mother of Mercy, and He as that Mercy personified, then everything else falls into its proper place.

Her assent to the Archangel Gabriel is absolutely crucial for Catholic anthropology ... for we believe that whilst Christ alone saves, it is God's will that we might co-operate in and act towards our own salvation, as she freely co-operated in His incarnation, a Gift by which we are saved and even though a gift which is entirely free, gratuitous and unmerited — nothing we can do can 'earn' us participation in the Interior Life of God (that is a 'good' that transcends every natural good to which we can by our nature lay claim), nothing except accept the gift with an open heart — it is God's will (as we see it) and His gift that He chooses to enoble His creature with the dignity of allowing it to saying 'yes.'

But no 'yes' of ours can ever match the yes of she who is the Theotokos, the God-Bearer ... every yes that humanity offers is subsequent to her yes to the angel, in that sense she is mother to Him, and mother of us all in Christ.

Hope that helps you understand the depth of our devotion to her (not worship of her), as His mother...

Pax et bonum,

Thomas

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi InLove,

Something missing ...

Um, Thomas my friend. That was/is a wonderful explanation. But InLove...well, she has been gone for two years now. And I think she sees more than we...

v/r

Joshua

[Thomas]

Oh good Lord ... of course ... what a ...



Thomas

[Marsh]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Um, a "mother's love" can melt the coldest of hearts...any mother's love. This in turn has "saved" many of us. So Mary indeed has helped save folk. She just didn't do it all by herself...

Please don't play semantics, Q; such a game is not fitting for a subject like this one. We all know that by "co-saviour" the OP is questioning where Mary fits into the Christian faith-- specifically, as Jesus is saviour, is Mary saviour. The answer is a categorical no. Anybody who prays to Mary prays to no one, because Mary is not the one sitting at the right hand of God, nor was she the one slain for mankind, nor will she return in the clouds to put an end to Satan's rule on earth, nor will she separate the sheep from the goats.

She never claimed to do any of these things, either. Frankly, I think she would be upset by the way she has been, for all intents and purposes, deified by the Catholic church.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Marsh

Please don't play semantics, Q; such a game is not fitting for a subject like this one. We all know that by "co-saviour" the OP is questioning where Mary fits into the Christian faith-- specifically, as Jesus is saviour, is Mary saviour. The answer is a categorical no. Anybody who prays to Mary prays to no one, because Mary is not the one sitting at the right hand of God, nor was she the one slain for mankind, nor will she return in the clouds to put an end to Satan's rule on earth, nor will she separate the sheep from the goats.

She never claimed to do any of these things, either. Frankly, I think she would be upset by the way she has been, for all intents and purposes, deified by the Catholic church.

I'm not. I made it quite clear who I think Mary is. She is a mother, who just happened to be responsible for raising the savior of man kind, as a child, and then taught him some powerful lessons as an adult, and then weeped for her son as no one but a mother can, at his death.

Nothing semantic about that.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by Marsh

Anybody who prays to Mary prays to no one ...

That may well be your experience, but then the insight, experience and evidence of saints and mystics for two millenia suggest otherwise, so you will understand and excuse us if we go on the weight of evidence as it presents itself to us.

Not only she, but in the Tradition there is a cornucopia of evidence of the beneficial intercession and assistance of the saints, so like yourself, we tend to go by what our experience tells us.

Originally Posted by Marsh

She never claimed to do any of these things...

Precisely, and nor has the Catholic Church ever claimed such. But she did intercede for us (John 2) and as we believe in the fullness of life in the eschaton, there is no reason to suppose that she has ceased to act in the next life as she did in this.

Then there are the Marian apparitions, which would seem to add weight to that argument.

Originally Posted by Marsh

Frankly, I think she would be upset by the way she has been, for all intents and purposes, deified by the Catholic church.

Your assumption, not that of the Catholic Church. To be sure she has called us to order more than once, but never on that point.

You are of course free to accept or deny the testimony of tradition, but then the argument becomes somewhat pointless. Many believe that Jesus Christ is also nothing more than a myth or a figment ... simply I would rather someone makes an informed decision based on fact and not hearsay, presupposition or error.

I am aware of the blurring of the distinction between devotion and deification in popular piety, but then people rarely speak from the discipline of metaphysical rigour, nor are they making doctrinal statements with theological precision. If such were the rule than language would become a very dull and dry thing indeed. Every poet would be relegated to the realm of irrational nonsense, for a start.

On the other hand, when I slip into metaphysical-theological mode, I am often met with the glazed eye, the furrowed brow, the stifled yawn ...

But rest assured never in any of my studies have I ever come across the notion that Mary is such that she renders her Son ancilliary to salvation.

Thomas

[Dondi]

Precisely, and nor has the Catholic Church ever claimed such. But she did intercede for us (John 2) and as we believe in the fullness of life in the eschaton, there is no reason to suppose that she has ceased to act in the next life as she did in this.

I'm curious to see how you gleen all this from just a few verses from John's Gospel.