Mass in Latin again

[flowperson]

I represent all of your misplaced "fish" remarks !

flow....

[Bruce Michael]

Shalom Muslimwoman,

>Br. Bruce - I didn't know where hocus pocus came from, do you know how >this came about?

Like it often happens in these derivations it is controversial:
The phrase "hoc est enim corpus meum" was said to be misheard and became hocus pocus.

Hocus Pocus

It's also said that the dance "The Hokey-Cokey" (you put your left leg in, etc.) originated in the days when Catholic priests performed the Mass facing the high altar (their back to the congregation), and quite possibly behind a semi-opaque rood screen. There they could be dimly seen, through the haze of incence and in flickering candle-light making all these odd movements. --

The other recent change is when the priest offers the blessing "The Lord be with you," the new translation calls for the congregation to respond, "And also with your spirit," instead of the familiar "And also with you."

I believe this is truer to the older versions.
In the Christian Community, it is "Christ in you." "And may He fill thy Spirit".

Best Regards,
Br.Bruce

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Thomas

I'm a Pisces, yet out of my depth!

Me too, and I'm Floundering!

s.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Yes it is and oh, the memories! How I used to dread the shipping forecast, and 'Sailing By' which meant end of transmission for the night.

I've just switched online. I'm listening to it right now. Tragically, a report of the the storming of the Red Mosque in Pakistan.

Thomas

I sometimes check out radio stations online from around the world looking for music of interest but I always seem to get talk talk talk

s.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Muslimwoman — I think that is the line promoted by propagandists — no-one died for translating the mass, and the translation of Scripture was rarely done so people could 'feel more a part of their faith'. The agenda was political and nationalistic.

Hi Thomas

Thank you so much for your comments, it is always so nice to learn and hear another side to the story. I feel sure that politics and desire for power played a large part in the reformation of Europe (just think of England and King Henry VIII's desire to wed and bed Anne Boleyn). However, in 1408 it was forbidden, on penalty of death, to make English translations of the Bible. Why would this be? What harm was it doing? Yes there were mistranslation but surely if the church had supported this then the translations could have been agreed upon?

Many historians have attributed this to a desire to retain power within the clergy. Just look at the heresy trials and subsequent deaths of Lollards or the St Bartholomew massacre (at that time the clergy owned over half of French land in the name of the Vatican). I hope I am a realist and while I accept that a majority of religious wars have been about politics and power, there are never the less a large number of people who were tried and killed for heresy based on attempts to translate the bible and conduct mass in their own language in order that common folk could be "closer to G-d". This may have been supported and excellerated by political ambitions but some really believed that the common man should understand the bible in order to truely understand their faith. I am reminded here of my own faith, prayers are performed in Arabic, so without translations or a knowledge of the arabic language I would simply be making motions and following religious leaders blindly, without any understanding of what I was actually doing. How ould this bring me closer to G-d?

Originally Posted by Thomas

People like to portray the Catholics as the villains in this case, but in fact the statistics show that far more women were burnt for witchcraft in Protestant states than in Catholic ones.

I don't think any religious group has been without it's periods of bloodshed, so saying one group is any more or any less guilty than another seems a little silly in the great scheme of things. (I am talking about historical arguments not about your personal comment here).

Originally Posted by Thomas

Meanwhile in Switzerland, heart of Protestant Calvinism, a woman was burnt to death for placing flowers on her husband's grave.

Oh my goodness, may she rest in peace, well that just shows how insane people can become over religious differences. This is one of my difficulties Thomas, I believe every religion can state instances such as this, then the other side states a bigger one, and so on in a never ending spiral of accusation. Until we can all hold our hands up and admit our faith's guilt in such practices, we can never move on to a time of interfaith tolerance. As Jesus (pbuh) said "let he without sin cast the first stone" and I know of no religious organisation without sin.

Originally Posted by Thomas

When the Protestants came to power, the last thing they had in mind was the rights of the common man — look up Martin Luther's savage repression of 'the peasant's revolt'.

I believe some did have the rights of the common man in mind, not states or churches but individuals. As I say look at the Lollards as an example.

Originally Posted by Thomas

We can all look back in hindsight, and judge the actions of the 1500s by the morality of today — but if one looks objectively, and openly, the picture is radically different, and as ever, the 'common man' suffered most.

As unfortunately he always does when Faith and politics become entwined. I agree we can look back and judge with modern morality (something we Muslims know all about) but this get's us nowhere imho, time to move on and deal with living in todays world.

Originally Posted by Thomas

No doubt my view is pro-Catholic, and so should be received as such, but people rarely bother to question where their 'assumed knowledge' comes from, and the Protestant PR machine has had centuries to insinuate its own innocence and catholic guilt.

Of course your veiw is pro-Catholic and I am glad to hear your view, it has brought much to the discussion. With all due respect has not the Catholic church had even longer to insinuate it's 'view of history' on the world?

Salaam
MW

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

The phrase "hoc est enim corpus meum" was said to be misheard and became hocus pocus.

as salaam aleykum Br. Bruce

What an absolute hoot. Sorry but I am left with images of a church full of people solemnly doing the hokey cokey and chanting hocus pocus. No offence meant to anyone. It does make you wonder how many of our current practices are simply traditions, whose origins are lost in time?

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

I believe this is truer to the older versions.
In the Christian Community, it is "Christ in you." "And may He fill thy Spirit".

Now I do like this, sometimes the old ways are perhaps the best.

Salaam
MW

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

With all due respect has not the Catholic church had even longer to insinuate it's 'view of history' on the world?

Depends where you live. In Europe now they want a European constitution with no reference to Christianity whatsoever, as if it never existed, as if Europe would have arrived at the place it is today without it ... so secularism is doing a great job of eradicating man's spiritual heritage.

In the US, UK and a lot of Europe, Catholicism is still regarded with suspicion. There were more questions about JFK's Catholicism than his father's support of National Socialism, as I recall. And recently big panics about the idea of Tony Blair converting. The question of a UK monarch marrying a Catholic cropped up a few years ago - that's a no-no, too.

Of course, the same thing happens to Islam. What was the Moslem city in Spain that had schools, libraries, public street lighting, hospitals ... Cordoba? Whilst in Paris and London we were still sitting in our own excrement?

And who jump-started the Renaissance but Moslem traders who opened up the Orient to the West?

Where did we get our philosophy from, the Greeks? Actually, no, we lost the connection after the collapse of the Holy Roman Empire, schisms in the Church, etc. Moslem scholars did much to reintroduce philosophy, mathematics, all the sciences, to the West. A very civilising influence.

Look at St Thomas Aquinas, raised on Moslem scholarship!

There's a painting of the Blessed Virgin in a museum somewhere, a woman of virtue wrapped in electric blue shimmering silk — Europe was stuck with wool, flax, etc. — anyway, around the hem of the material the artist has reproduced the 'Arabesque pattern' — in fact its script and so well done it's still legible: "There is but one God, and His name is Allah ..." — ooops-a-daisy! No-one told him what it meant ...

Ask the man in the street what he thinks we owe to Islam ... I doubt one in a hundred, one in a thousdand, would have any idea of just how much.

Thomas

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Depends where you live. In Europe now they want a European constitution with no reference to Christianity whatsoever, as if it never existed, as if Europe would have arrived at the place it is today without it ... so secularism is doing a great job of eradicating man's spiritual heritage.

Oh my goodness, that is just a tad OTT. How can anyone even try to guess where we would be today without Christianity or Judaism or Islam or the Eastern faiths. That goes from an educated guess to pure fantasy, in my mind.

Originally Posted by Thomas

The question of a UK monarch marrying a Catholic cropped up a few years ago - that's a no-no, too.

Was this Charles? If so, as I remember, the issue was about his ability to become King (and therefore head of the Protestant Church) if he was married to a Catholic (or anyone from any other faith). His oath would be to protect the Church of England and this may conflict with his marriage vows. Didn't they discuss removing the Monarch as head of the Church, for this reason and because the oath also includes protecting all citizens (who now vary greatly in faith)?

I accept anti-Catholicism exists, there seems to be suspicion of all faith these days. Perhaps we bring it upon ourselves when we fail to tolerate each other, let alone those with no faith. Difficult subject really, as we cannot change G-d's laws to suit our age of acceptance but we also have to exist in a multi-cultural, multi-faith society. How I wish I had a magic wand (although if I did have one I am not sure I would know what to do with it).

Originally Posted by Thomas

There's a painting of the Blessed Virgin in a museum somewhere, a woman of virtue wrapped in electric blue shimmering silk — Europe was stuck with wool, flax, etc. — anyway, around the hem of the material the artist has reproduced the 'Arabesque pattern' — in fact its script and so well done it's still legible: "There is but one God, and His name is Allah ..." — ooops-a-daisy! No-one told him what it meant ...

If you come across the name of the painting please will you let me know, as I have not seen it. I may not have an artistic bone in my body but I love fine art. Allah just means G-d, so really it just translates as "There is only one G-d and his name is G-d". It was rather naughty of the artist but shows Islam's love of the Virgin Mary perhaps? I think many people are unaware that much of Islamic art has incorporated arabic writing, which is often just copied as a 'pretty pattern' lol. One of the most popular is what looks like a square with a geometric shape, when in fact it is the name Mohammad written 4 times.

Originally Posted by Thomas

Ask the man in the street what he thinks we owe to Islam ... I doubt one in a hundred, one in a thousand, would have any idea of just how much.

This is the problem for all of us, I feel, religion is judged on it's past against modern morality and so Islam is seen as wars and child brides, Catholicism as inquisitions and greedy, Christianity as Crusades and ......... and so it goes on. Perhaps until we ourselves feel able to let go of the past and reform ourselves, that history will always define us?

Salaam
MW

[Thomas]

Hi Muslimwoman —

I think the motive force behind secularism is a culture driven by consumerism. These forces are essentially anti-human, but hugely (and superficially) attractive and equally as addictive.

Consumer culture is addict culture.

The problem with all religions is they champion the intrinsic worth of the human being. That goes against consumer culture. Think of the cosmetic company tagline 'because you're worth it' — if that was true then their message would be 'don't change', but it isn't, the message is, 'spend every penny you have with us and we will sell you an empty promise of making you appear to be something that you're not ... but that we've convinced you is what you ought to be ... '

... what has this to do with Mass in Latin?

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Was this Charles? If so, as I remember, the issue was about his ability to become King (and therefore head of the Protestant Church) if he was married to a Catholic (or anyone from any other faith).

Slight correction — Charles is head of the Anglican Church, not the Protestant, but yes. Actually he's more inclined towards Greek Orthodoxy (no-one held that against Philip when he married Elizabeth) and has a deep interest inb Islam and Sufism, but don't tell anyone ...

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I accept anti-Catholicism exists, there seems to be suspicion of all faith these days.

That's secularism for you.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

It was rather naughty of the artist but shows Islam's love of the Virgin Mary perhaps? I think many people are unaware that much of Islamic art has incorporated arabic writing, which is often just copied as a 'pretty pattern' lol. One of the most popular is what looks like a square with a geometric shape, when in fact it is the name Mohammad written 4 times.

Ah no! The artist was a European Christian. My point was it was Arab traders who introduced these fantastic materials into Europe, and we couldn't get enough of them, so the artist got hold of this blue silk with a patterned border, and never realised what the script said! If people knew, he'd have been in deep doo-doo!

I am a typographer by profession, who specialises in clarity, legibility and information graphics ... so all grids, patterns, ratios and relations ... so have spent many an hour just admiring the handiwork, often without the slightest clue as to what was being written ... I've probably stood enraptured in front of a piece of script that says 'danger, falling masonry' or 'toilets this way' ...

TTFN,

Thomas

[Thomas]

ANYWAY ... BACK TO THE LATIN —

"I don't know much about art, but I know what I like" — we don't have to understand something 'front brain' for it to appeal to us, and often deeply, art, music and the like often bypasses all the immediate critical faculties and strikes right to the heart.

Bishop Kallistos Ware, leader of the Greek Orthodox in the UK, speaks of his conversion when he simply walked into an Orthodox service in full flight, and was transported by the music and voice ...

So a well-presented Latin Mass can do just that, whereas, for me, no matter how good it is, folk music can't do it ... sentimentality, yes, spirituality, no.

Thomas

[China Cat Sunflower]

I dunno. Isn't the whole thing supposed to be mystical-ish? I'm far out of the loop on this, but I keep wondering if a Wagner opera would be more edifying in English, and I have to think not. Not that I wouldn't appreciate an English translation in the programme. I like that I don't know what the words mean, that way they can be truly iconic as primal utterance, sound art if you will.

Chris

[China Cat Sunflower]

That makes me think about pure language as primal-creative utterance. DNA, RNA, and etc. as proto-language. Music; the whole Pythagorean ratio thing as proto-language. Like the beauty of the original Arabic, the original Aramaic, only written in the mountains, the oceans, the plants and animals, the colors and the wind: the rhythms of life.

Chris

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Thomas

if that was true then their message would be 'don't change', but it isn't, the message is, 'spend every penny you have with us and we will sell you an empty promise of making you appear to be something that you're not ... but that we've convinced you is what you ought to be ... '

Hi Thomas

You seem to have a really good grasp of advertising and how fickle we 'customers' are. If I had saved the money I have spent over the years trying to change myself into the stereotype 'perfect' woman, I could transform an African village. Wish I had learnt that lesson long before I did.

Originally Posted by Thomas

Slight correction — Charles is head of the Anglican Church,

My apologies, I have never understood who all the different churches are or indeed why.

Originally Posted by Thomas

Ah no! The artist was a European Christian.

Woops, sorry I misunderstood.

Originally Posted by Thomas

I've probably stood enraptured in front of a piece of script that says 'danger, falling masonry' or 'toilets this way' ...

LOL. I shall admit this but only once. I sat in a cafe a couple of years ago looking at some arabic script on a sign over the raod. I was trying to learn the arabic alphabet, so carefully picked out the letters I recognised. I commented how beautiful the writing is and asked my hubby to read the word for me, which he did and then translated it - "slaughter house". It quite put me off my lunch.

Salaam
MW

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Bishop Kallistos Ware, leader of the Greek Orthodox in the UK, speaks of his conversion when he simply walked into an Orthodox service in full flight, and was transported by the music and voice ...

Erm silly question, having complete ignorance of the Greek Orthodox Church, do they hold their services in Latin? Is it a Christian based religion?

Oh, so much to learn and so little time.

What really made me look into Islam was a ringtone I had been sent. OK that sounds stupid and fickle but it was a nasheed in arabic and I played it thousands of times, without the first clue as to what it was about. That was the start of my path, I looked up the nasheed translation, then read the Quran. Allah does indeed move in mysterious ways.

[Thomas]

Hi Chris —

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I dunno. Isn't the whole thing supposed to be mystical-ish?

I beg your pardon ... hrrumph ... Supposed? ... gah! bloorgh! wha! ... SUPPOSED, SIR? ... How da ... you ... (wipes spittle off monitor) aargh!! ()

... and relax ...

You're spot on, Chris, the only thing I would say is that it is mystical ... the Latin Sacrament is a translation of the Greek Mysterium.

The Mass is a Mystical Rite.

At this point I should step out ... but I find myself impelled to wonder if the 'modernisers' and 'liberalisers' of Vatican II were working under the assumption that the 'common man' is in fact too stupid to possess any spiritual or even aesthetic sensibility, and too brutish to be able to sit quietly for any length of time ... so let's get rid of all that mystical stuff which is beyond them anyway, and make everything as quick and simple as possible ... what we have come to call 'dumbing down' ... I wonder if it ever occurred to the modernisers that if people were interested, they might find out for themselves?

The vernacular Mass can be spiritual, and quite moving ... but the very mundanity (?) of language — and especially the poor English of the current missal — militates against it.

Thomas