Mass in Latin again

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

An upfront answer Thomas (re: the Eucharist). I guess this is what hurts me about the Catholic statements being affirmed lately.

According to Justin Martyr, the second century Christian Church had three requirements for sharing in the Eucharist:
Identity of belief,
Christian baptism,
and moral life.

"No one may share in the eucharist except those who believe in the truth of our teachings and have been washed in the bath which confers forgiveness of sins and rebirth, and who live according to Christ's commands"
(First Apology, 66).

This is the rule handed down to Justin, and is evidenced by tradition, and this is the rule that Catholicism follows.

Since the Reformation, that 'identity of belief' has been shattered, on two counts with reference to this discussion:
1 — The rejection of the authority of Tradition.
2 — The rejection of the traditional Doctrine of the Eucharist.

Effectively you're saying 'we've altered things, and established ourselves as separate bodies, but that doesn't change anything' ... well I'm afraid it does.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I am part of the Church, I am part of the one, holy, catholic faith.

Then why are you apart from the one, holy, Catholic faith? Why do you profess another faith? Acceptance of the Office of Peter, for example, is an integral part of that faith, it cannot be separated from it.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

That you do not recognize me as part of the Body,

The Reformation was the process of removing oneself from a body, and establishing other bodies. The reality is that the other denominations set up other bodies.

Originally Posted by lunamoth

and think that when I consume the Eucharist you think it is nothing (or worse), makes me realize that you can't consider me your sister in Christ.

It is not I who says this ... you have to look to your doctrines, and why your institutions chose to express it differently ... in some Anglican circles the Eucharist is nothing more than a symbol ... it is not I who denies you the gift of the Real Presence in the Eucharist, it is you who, by your doctrines, refuse to believe it.

If you want it, then come home ...

Thomas

[flowperson]

Hello All...I am still of the opinion that Pope Benedict's recent affirmations of pronouncements made when he was Cardinal Ratzinger seem to be unfortunate in their timing and effect. At a time when the world should be trying to unify itself concerning beliefs in the fundamental dignity of our existence as a species placed on Earth by G-d to do good things in and for all life, these pronouncements seem to be having contrary effects.

Here's an excellent overview of differing opinions on this matter.

flow....

Sign Up

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Thomas

If you want it, then come home ...

Thomas

I already have it Thomas. I am part of the one Holy Catholic Faith but apparently you fail to recognize this. My relationship with God is secure. It is our relationship which is at risk.

I think I've lost my heart for dialogue.

Have a good one.

[China Cat Sunflower]

In my heaven we get to keep Catholics as pets!

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

In my heaven we get to keep Catholics as pets!

Chris

lol, beware the "pet" you keep...you might get bit.

v/r

josh

[Francis king]

for me, I would be more likely to go to mass if it was held in latin, as I think the use of latin elevates the mass, makes it appear more worthy... yes, of couse, to me, the words themselves would be almost meaningless, but throw a bit of insense into the mix and add a few latin words and I'm happy- there is then some mystery in the mass, and mass once again becomes a solemn and powerful thing, rather than the bored lifeless intonation of words nobody believes in which appears to be currently in vogue...

that there is part of it which suggests we pray that jewish heathens be converted... I would not know, and would probably mumble the responses anyway, but now I am aware of it I find it quite funny, that Catholics should pray for jews to find jesus yet although I might find it amusing I would hope it was removed from mass, but Ratzinger is a traditionalist, and he will get his own way, the beady eyed blighter, and I am hoing he soon pops his clogs and we can get a better quality pope...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Francis king

for me, I would be more likely to go to mass if it was held in latin, as I think the use of latin elevates the mass, makes it appear more worthy... yes, of couse, to me, the words themselves would be almost meaningless, but throw a bit of insense into the mix and add a few latin words and I'm happy- there is then some mystery in the mass, and mass once again becomes a solemn and powerful thing, rather than the bored lifeless intonation of words nobody believes in which appears to be currently in vogue...

that there is part of it which suggests we pray that jewish heathens be converted... I would not know, and would probably mumble the responses anyway, but now I am aware of it I find it quite funny, that Catholics should pray for jews to find jesus yet although I might find it amusing I would hope it was removed from mass, but Ratzinger is a traditionalist, and he will get his own way, the beady eyed blighter, and I am hoing he soon pops his clogs and we can get a better quality pope...

For you perhaps. But for me, mass is everything. And the words are meaningful, in latin, english, italian, what ever. Catholic Mass is anything but boring and/or lifeless.

As far as "Jews" finding Jesus, the hope is for all to find Jesus. And how bold to wish for the death of someone, simply because of a disagreement of views...

You really gotta be careful about what you say...never know when a catholic might be reading your point of view...they could take offense...

v/r

Q

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I already have it Thomas.

It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them. Nevertheless, the word “subsists” can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe... in the “one” Church); and this “one” Church subsists in the Catholic Church.
Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I am part of the one Holy Catholic Faith but apparently you fail to recognize this.

Christ “established here on earth” only one Church and instituted it as a “visible and spiritual community”, that from its beginning and throughout the centuries has always existed and will always exist, and in which alone are found all the elements that Christ himself instituted. “This one Church of Christ, which we confess in the Creed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic […]. This Church, constituted and organised in this world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him”.
Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church

Originally Posted by lunamoth

My relationship with God is secure. It is our relationship which is at risk.

I have never questioned that, nor do I.

But it does seem to me a case of people wanting the best of both worlds. I don't want to be Catholic because I don't want to have to accept all that stuff your believe in ... oh, I want that bit, that's a nice bit ...

Sorry Lunamoth

But I say again, 'they' decided to set themselves up apart from 'us', and then insist they're the same as us (or better) when it comes to the benefits on offer ... I think its fundamentally intellectually dishonest to ignore difference, or pretend it doesn't exist.

When I was sixteen I had a friend, a very close friend, a girl, a Trinidadian girl. And I said, "I don't see you as black," in a right-on, cool kinda way ... then one day she turned on me, "I wonder who you do see," she asked, "because I am black."

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I think I've lost my heart for dialogue.

Don't, because this is important.

If we say all the different denominations are One Church, then that One Church becomes an abstraction, an idea, with no actual bodily reality, for no single Church presents it ... it's present in all of them, but never as itself, but various versions of it ... and if we allow that, if I agree with what people are proposing here, then I am obliged to say that the Church does not exist on earth at all, other other than as an idea.

But there was One Church, for over a thousand years ... and my faith calls for me to find that Church, or at least it's most authentic representative, the unbroken continuation of tradition, and that is the Catholic Church.

Thomas

[wil]

I do not believe the changes currently afoot will change the following...more likely they will exacerbate it.

A cursory look at Hispanic flight from the Catholic Church in the United States shows that the situation here is just as serious. “A 1986 Gallup Poll revealed that in the preceding 10 years, 5 million Hispanics joined Evangelical and Pentecostal churches, approximately 30 percent of the 17 million Hispanics in the United States. Of these, 64 percent converted to these groups from Catholicism.”[3] The situation is not limited to Hispanics in or out of the U.S.

The same trend is visible in the United States. American Catholic leaders have also expressed a great concern about the growth of Evangelical and Pentecostal churches in this country, a growth that often comes through Catholics leaving their churches. Here, statistics are hard to come by. Much anecdotal evidence suggests that many members of Pentecostal and independent charismatic churches are former Catholics. This is especially true of regions with a large Catholic population. One researcher who did an informal survey estimates that 30 percent of the 35 million Evangelicals and Pentecostals in the United States are first- or second-generation former Catholics.[4]

Within Christianity, not all denominations have the same growth rate. Some annual growth rates are:
Pentecostals: 8.1% Evangelicals: 5.4%; All Protestants: 3.3% Roman Catholics and Others: 1.3% Since the growth rate of humanity is above 1.4%, the "market share" of Roman Catholicism and others appears to be slowly dropping.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

So do you believe that you can present your soul before G-d, in his realm, without Mass?

Yes. Prayer, as you have indicated, enters the Divine. The point I was trying to make is the Mass is prayer, and more.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Is that metaphorically or physically at the last supper?

Spiritually present.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Sorry InLove hasn't got as far as the Holy Spirit with me yet. So what, to you, is the Holy Spirit and is it a different entity to G-d?

Well now you're entering the realm of mystery, and the inadequacies of language.

The Holy Spirit is God. The Father is God. The Son is God. God is One, but the Three each exist in their own right as God ... I'll leave the rest to Inlove. Islam, as we know, assumes Christianity to be trithest ... but that is not what we believe, being inheritors of Judaic monotheism. However, explaining how God is three, and God is one, involves very technical theological language, with very precise theological definitions...

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

So why do you need to physically drink his blood and eat his body? What purpose does it serve? That sounds rude but I hope you know I do not mean it to be.

There's no easy answer to that, I'm afraid, and a forum such as this is not quite the place to try and get to grips with it, I think.

Pax,

Thomas

[Muslimwoman]

Hi Thomas

There seems to be so much which cannot easily be explained. To be honest it does rather make me feel better, in that I have never been able to understand these issues and had they been easy to explain that would suggest it is just me that fails to understand them. Perhaps it is only for people G-d intends to take that path who can really understand them?

I hope that you all enjoy Mass in Latin and it brings you spiritual peace.

Salaam and G-d bless

MW

[Francis king]

hey, I was baptised a catholic too... I'm sorry to have offended you.

[lunamoth]

Francis, and anyone else reading, just wanted you to know that I am not at all offended by the idea of the Latin Mass...just the opposite. I've never seen it but I but I would imagine that it's amazing and Catholics should be able to worhip in any tongue they choose. I am however greatly put off by the implication that the Eucharist is dust on my tongue, an empty gesture. For all the talk about 'us' being responsible for separating from 'them,' the Pope and those who are pleased to to 'make this clear' to all of us poor sinners need to at least take a reality check. It is their responsibility to own up to the effect those words have on others and the real human cost of making a hard line in the sand.

[Thomas]

Hi Luna —

Well, I have to admit I am frankly sickened by the responses I have witnessed on this forum. It probably never occurs to people that some take their faith seriously, and wishing the Pope dead?

Is that acceptable practice on CR? If I wished the Dalai Lama dead? Apparently it is, cos FK has apologised for upsetting me, but asserted that his death would be her best choice ...

When I asked whether I would have been allowed to wish another dead, I was met with just further assurance that if I choose to be a Catholic, what more can I expect.

Now we've moved onto the basic theme that none of the discussion matters, when in dout just bring up child abuse ... because all Catholic priests are perverts, and the Catholic Church is institutionalised perversion.

+++

I just wanted to correct a misunderstanding I may have brought about, on your part, I'd hate us to part thinking as you appear to do... The Pope never said the Eucharist is an empty gesture outside of the Catholic Church, and nor do I, but it is other denominations that said that Transubstantiation does not occur. In fact the Anglican is, along with the Lutherans, perhaps closest to the Orthodox position, but then their position has become so polyvalent of late that it's hard to determine any doctrinal position at all.

We're not saying your liturgy doesn't work. We never did. We're being told that our liturgy is irrational and superstitious nonsense.

But d'you want to know the real joke?

Pope Benedict never wrote that document.

The document simply re-asserts the assertions of Vatican II, made 50 years ago. The same doctrine that Pope John Paul II promoted. And whilst those on CR tear into Catholicism, heads of other religions have commented that no meaningful discussion can take place until the differences are honestly acknowledged, and although the document brings to the fore the perhaps painful distinctions, that is the ground we have to more forward from.

+++

Anyway ...

I'm sorry it had to end this way. Just last week I made noble efforts to bridge the gulf between Andrew and myself (esoteric and esoterica) and actually proclaimed the fact that we had lengthy discussion without conflict.

The next day, apparently, he joins in the Catholic-bashing in his inimitable style. I have pinned his hand to the table with a dagger. So much for the hand of friendship.

When he feels affronted, he pours bile and invective on me, the church, the pope, every Catholic in sight ... nothing ... I offer a sharply-worded rebuke, and half a dozen posts tell me not to be so dogmatic.

Meanwhile others tolerate me as a Catholic, but not too bad ...

What really struck home was not one ... for every word of reach and wisdom, every gesture of a faith that transcends boundaries I have honestly put into CR, not one ... not one, offered me the benefit of the doubt.

That speaks volumes to me...

Anyway ... I shall cherish our little offlist chats. Keep an eye out for those killer tomatoes.

Peace be with you, and yours,

Thomas

[Muslimwoman]

I am very sorry I started this thread. I was genuinely interested to hear people's views of the return to Mass in Latin and what this meant to Catholics. I had never intended it to be a topic for anyone bashing anyone else.

Good heavens, if we can't tolerate each other on an interfaith forum, what hope is there for the outside world??????