Mass in Latin again

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Well, I have to admit I am frankly sickened by the responses I have witnessed on this forum. It probably never occurs to people that some take their faith seriously, and wishing the Pope dead?

Thomas, I have no doubt at all that you take you faith seriously but so do others and it is one thing for a peon such as we are to speak so harshly and quite another for someone such as the Pope. I do not wish the Pope dead, I see it far more beneficial to see his ideas exposed as regressive and ignorant. But something i cannot abide is when someone defends because he is ordered to by dogma. To Catholics the Pope is a manifestation of God on earth. This is a complete lie. The Pope is a man like any other but in a position of great power. It seems to me that you are caught in this dogma trap against your core humanity. And thus that this conflict is really one resident within you and not, despite sensationalist rhetoric, really influenced by what others are saying here.

Now we've moved onto the basic theme that none of the discussion matters, when in dout just bring up child abuse ... because all Catholic priests are perverts, and the Catholic Church is institutionalised perversion.

Not sure but I believe it may have been me that raised this issue? Why? because it is pertinent to current headlines and contextually significant in understanding what kind of man Ratzinger is. I understand that it opens a can of toxic worms that the Catholic Church would rather ignore but as I have stated clearly it is not something I see as solely a problem within Catholicism. Sgain I repeat, I raised the issue because of its direct application to understanding what priorities this Pope see's as important. Very relevant i would think.

I am genuinely troubled that you personally seem to have taken this debate as a personal affront on you. And would like to assure you that from my corner at least this is most certainly not the case. I am genuinely sorry if I cause you real distress with my words and would like to offer you my assurance that i do respect practising Catholics as individuals committed to their faith. My current partner, whom I will soon lose due to her imminent return to Poland, would be more likely to gnaw off a limb than miss mass, so I understand your devotion and have no wish to interfere in it. But honest debate sometimes touches nerves. Its a small price to pay for truth.

Tao

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Thomas

What really struck home was not one ... for every word of reach and wisdom, every gesture of a faith that transcends boundaries I have honestly put into CR, not one ... not one, offered me the benefit of the doubt.

Group hug, anyone?

If I have offended you in anyway, my apologies. I did start the "Pope: Other Christians are not true churches" thread, with a joke no less, but hardly an original one. I even solicited a responses specifically from you, Thomas, not to specifically try to force debate, but to gain somewhat of an understanding of what you think about the Pope's statement. Granted, i only read the article, as there was no link in the Yahoo article that linked tothe source. But the first impression of the article led me to believe that the Pope was asserting a strong muscle against every other church denomination. If that is in error, forgive me. You even replied in the esoteric thread that this wasn't the case:

Originally Posted by Thomas

"On the larger question, the Catholic Church has come under enormous criticism from other Christian denominations for its stance towards other religions, in that it acknowledges them as authentic and viable 'Ways' ... and seeks always to increase the dialogue between the Ways, for the benefit of mankind as a whole."

Which seems at odds from the spirit of the Yahoo article. In retrospect, I was also ignorant of the wording of the statement affirmed by the Pope, which adresses the Reformation Protestant churches as found in this article:

"Catholic ecumenism might seem, at first sight, somewhat paradoxical. The Second Vatican Council II used the phrase 'subsistit in' in order to try to harmonize two doctrinal affirmations: on the one hand, that despite all the divisions between Christians the Church of Christ continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand that numerous elements of sanctification and truth do exist outwith the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church whether in the particular Churches or in the ecclesial Communities that are not fully in communion with the Catholic Church."

"Although the Catholic Church has the fullness of the means of salvation, 'nevertheless, the divisions among Christians prevent the Church from effecting the fullness of catholicity proper to her in those of her children who, though joined to her by baptism, are yet separated from full communion with her.' The fullness of the Catholic Church, therefore, already exists, but still has to grow in the brethren who are not yet in full communion with it and also in its own members who are sinners."

I understand your position, Thomas, as well as the Catholic Church. The Church cannot afford to be wrong, for in doing so will admit to a defect in the Church which Christ founded. In the Catholic Churches mind, it is the Cadillac of Christianity. All others are Fords, Chevys, and Dodges.

ETA: For the record, I do think some of the ruder comments directed to the Pope are completely uncalled for. Certainly death wishes for the Pope do nothing to encourage a spirit of discourse, regardless of what one believes of the man. It is to me a personal attack on the person of Joseph Ratzinger rather than the position he holds.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Luna —

Well, I have to admit I am frankly sickened by the responses I have witnessed on this forum. It probably never occurs to people that some take their faith seriously, and wishing the Pope dead?

Is that acceptable practice on CR? If I wished the Dalai Lama dead? Apparently it is, cos FK has apologised for upsetting me, but asserted that his death would be her best choice ...

When I asked whether I would have been allowed to wish another dead, I was met with just further assurance that if I choose to be a Catholic, what more can I expect.

Now we've moved onto the basic theme that none of the discussion matters, when in dout just bring up child abuse ... because all Catholic priests are perverts, and the Catholic Church is institutionalised perversion.

+++

I just wanted to correct a misunderstanding I may have brought about, on your part, I'd hate us to part thinking as you appear to do... The Pope never said the Eucharist is an empty gesture outside of the Catholic Church, and nor do I, but it is other denominations that said that Transubstantiation does not occur. In fact the Anglican is, along with the Lutherans, perhaps closest to the Orthodox position, but then their position has become so polyvalent of late that it's hard to determine any doctrinal position at all.

We're not saying your liturgy doesn't work. We never did. We're being told that our liturgy is irrational and superstitious nonsense.

But d'you want to know the real joke?

Pope Benedict never wrote that document.

The document simply re-asserts the assertions of Vatican II, made 50 years ago. The same doctrine that Pope John Paul II promoted. And whilst those on CR tear into Catholicism, heads of other religions have commented that no meaningful discussion can take place until the differences are honestly acknowledged, and although the document brings to the fore the perhaps painful distinctions, that is the ground we have to more forward from.

+++

Anyway ...

I'm sorry it had to end this way. Just last week I made noble efforts to bridge the gulf between Andrew and myself (esoteric and esoterica) and actually proclaimed the fact that we had lengthy discussion without conflict.

The next day, apparently, he joins in the Catholic-bashing in his inimitable style. I have pinned his hand to the table with a dagger. So much for the hand of friendship.

When he feels affronted, he pours bile and invective on me, the church, the pope, every Catholic in sight ... nothing ... I offer a sharply-worded rebuke, and half a dozen posts tell me not to be so dogmatic.

Meanwhile others tolerate me as a Catholic, but not too bad ...

What really struck home was not one ... for every word of reach and wisdom, every gesture of a faith that transcends boundaries I have honestly put into CR, not one ... not one, offered me the benefit of the doubt.

That speaks volumes to me...

Anyway ... I shall cherish our little offlist chats. Keep an eye out for those killer tomatoes.

Peace be with you, and yours,

Thomas

Thomas, I have never bashed Catholics...I've always considered myself closet to you in religious spirit out of all the members here. That's what makes it hurt so much to suddenly have it thrust in my face how cut off you feel you are to me, how weak and shallow you consider my faith.

Do you remember when AdD was making very pointed posts in your direction. Do you remember that I replied in my post that he was being unfair in his criticism of you, and I defended you saying that I did not think you were the unthinking dogmatic follower that he was making you out to be? You don't know that his private reply to me was that if push came to shove you'd gore my ox as well. Was he right? I thought he was wrong...but now.

These may all be things that are not new, in fact I know all of this is standard Catholic doctrine. I've known it all along, I've not been fooling myself that there are not differnences and that it just does not matter which is which. It does matter and I remain Episcopalian for a reason. And here's a bit part of that reason. We don't go around proclaiming that we know it all and everyone else falls short. We place human relationships at the very top of our list of things we consider most important, as commanded by Jesus. What possible good is going to come to loudly sticking it to the rest of the world, saying "We alone are right!" No good. It merely fuels the fires of divisivness that already flame out of control.

I try not to dis the Pope or the Office of the Pope, even if it is a style of church governance I don't agree with. But this Pope is making it very clear that the Catholic Church is no longer interested in the type of humble diplomacy John Paul was so excellent at. I never felt that the Catholic Church was weak under his care, I felt it flourished and I loved him. This new Pope has managed to p*ss off Muslims and now Jews and pretty much every other Christian denomination in his short rule. Sure, it's none of my business and all through the early controversy I stayed out of it. Now I see the naivety of that.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

**No, I am not comparing the Catholic Church to Nazis...this is a comment on my own silence when the Catholic Church and others were being gored by a multitude of posts here**

Is this how we want it????

I also have become sick at many of the interactions between Christians here at CR, and other places. I'm sick of the bashing of the Catholic Church...I should have stepped up and voiced my objections to the garbage I've heard. Just as I object to the meanness and intolerance and garbage I read here regarding all of other religions. Even so, I'm sure I could expect in the next post to be told how I'm a damned heretic. No mind though. At least I would not be guilty by my silence.

I believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. How that happens I don't know. I'm content to leave it at Mystery. If that means I am not a Christian and it's meaningless in your eyes, so be it.

Well, I usually just don't have the fortitude for bare-knuckles. Trying to be considerate and respectful of others has always been important to me. Trying to listen and understand, rather than force my view, has been my approach. Trying to build relationships, rather than draw lines in the sand. I take a lot of cr*p and probably fail to gain the respect of many here because I try to be respectful and tolerant. It's more important to me that I live my principles than force them on others. I've come to expect that if I participate here people will be telling me I'm damned. Oh well.

Same ol' same ol.

[lunamoth]

By the way Thomas, I realize that it is probably unfair of me to finally lose it and vent my spleen over something you have written after all the bull that's been spread by the evangelical Prostestant Christians on this forum. As I said above, though, I thought that at least in you there was some understanding of my faith, some generosity and spirit of fellowship. It cuts deepest when we are rejected by those we feel closest to.

And as I said in my other post, there is a real human cost, one puts relationships at risk, when one takes the hard line. Pope Benedict has decided that this is the way for the Catholic Church. There will be fallout.

[Tao_Equus]

Luna,

Your voice is never unheard or weightless. I share the "faith" of none here but the voices of a few ring loud in my ears. Yours is amongst the loudest and my respect for your opinions is as important to me as are my own. I think that Thomas is acting like one with his back against the wall in an extremely uncomfortable atmosphere and i feel confident that he, as i, would be quick to applaud your humane impartiality. These 3 related threads have been extremely contentious and we have seen out of character displays from some regular posters. Sometimes there are silly seasons. But they pass.

kindest regards

tao

[Thomas]

Dear all —

I appear to have made a blunder.

My last post was, I thought, a private communication to Lunamoth to clarify, as I stated, something that I said which might have given her the wrong impression. Now I see I have posted it publicly. That was not my intention.

Lunamoth and I have had a number of offline discussions, and I have always (or or off) found her fair, warm, and generous of heart and spirit. I hope she will accept my unreserved apology for what can only appear to be an offhand and, frankly, a bloody rude response.

She knows me better than anyone here, and I was thus somewhat more outspoken in what I thought to be a private communication than I would be in a public forum. I wanted her to have a sense of 'where I was coming from' ... most of all I wanted a sounding, and I have full faith and trust in her in that regard ...

... Now, it appears I have heaped insult upon error. My fault, nothing I can do to undo it, and mea culpa, Luna, I am really, really sorry.

+++

To everyone else —

I am sorry it has come to this, and I am sorry for the offence I have caused. I really have enjoyed my time here (despite appearances), I have learnt much, both about myself and others, and most of all have witnessed what I fully believe, 'that the spirit bloweth where it listeth, and none can say from whence it cometh, nor whither it goeth ...' perhaps most of all, I have learnt to listen ...

In all I have said and done, I hope I have been honest, and fair. Willing to listen and to dialogue ... when I have been robust in response, I have always hoped to offer sound philosophical reason, I don't think I have ever once said "because it's doctrine" or "because we say so" ... but I have never masked my love of Tradition, the consciousness of a precious and living heritage, a Christian heritage to which every Christian can lay claim, and one which the world would rather just quietly went away ... it really is worth standing up for, you know ... it's we who bring the crap of the world to it, not the other way round.

But I have been made painfully aware of the anger, and perhaps not too strongly, the casual venom, the word Catholic invokes ... I knew it was there, just didn't realise it would come from every direction ... OK, part of the job is to roll with it, take the hit, draw the sting, and pray that something better might take its place ... but I never realised how much ...

Anyway, I hope this goes some little way in support of my apologia.

Bye bye and God bless,

Thomas

[Tao_Equus]

Thomas,

I, believe it or not, try to stay off the Christianity boards. But i do read them. From this i see how valued and respected your wisdom is by the many who contribute to this little community. I hope you have the good sense to see that your role here transcends faith or denomination and is held in high esteem by the many. I do not see that anyone has engaged you personally recently with the aim of calling into question the principles that make you the good man you undoubtedly are. As an almost lone defender you have had your back against the wall, but I feel confidant that no-one was having a go at you. I think you to good and big a man for this bye bye to mean farewell, and look forward to many more of your enlightening posts.

kindest regards

tao

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Good heavens, if we can't tolerate each other on an interfaith forum, what hope is there for the outside world??????

Many is the time I have asked myself the same question.

[Muslimwoman]

as salaam aleykum

Ahem, Ladies and Gentlemen, please can we stop bickering now. I began this thread in an earnest attempt to begin dialogue on the subject of Mass in Latin, not as a means for people to start a verbal fight. What on earth did I say wrong?

CR is my sanctuary, my new global family and as with any family I care about the people here, so if I said something rude please tell me what it was because I never intended any insult to anyone.

The topic was in fact dear to my heart, as a Muslim I pray 5 times a day in Arabic and every time I pray I know there are 1.4 billion people in the world sharing that same prayer (different time zones accepted but you get the idea). I feel sure you have all worked out by now that I travel rather a lot and no matter where I go in the world I can now stand side by side with sisters and pray in a common language, even when we do not share a common tongue. Muslims are taught that we are tied together by a common rope and we must hold fast to that rope, we do this through common prayer. So I understand perfectly the importance of prayer in a common language and an old language at that. I was simply curious as to whether Catholics felt this same connection when Mass is said in Latin.


Thomas I truly hope I did not add to the feelings you are currently experiencing. You have been patient and kind in explaining your views to me. Through our discussion I can see how important this issue is to you and why. Perhaps explaining your views to a Muslim is the least important thing on your mind but it was very important to me, it took one small step closer to interfaith understanding and tolerance, so thank you for that. I sincerely hope you will cool off and reconsider leaving us, so many people here respect you and enjoy discussing issues with you, myself included of course.

I admire your conviction to defend your faith and believe me I know it is not easy at times. I have been told I "grovel like a pig in dirt when I pray", "am oppressed" and "only became a Muslim so I could marry my husband" (suggesting I converted for lust, not for love of G-d - how horribly insulting). This is without the conversations about terrorism, polygamy, child abuse, etc. They are issues I must deal with every day, be honest and not hide from, I must confront them and where possible explain the misconceptions people hold. We all have mountains to climb Thomas and yes sometimes we need to sit and rest. However, I pray you will return to us after your rest, we would miss your intelligent discussion and your conviction to your faith.

salaam
Sally

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

By the way Thomas, I realize that it is probably unfair of me to finally lose it and vent my spleen over something you have written after all the bull that's been spread by the evangelical Prostestant Christians on this forum. As I said above, though, I thought that at least in you there was some understanding of my faith, some generosity and spirit of fellowship. It cuts deepest when we are rejected by those we feel closest to.

I hope you realize the error of that statement, luna. I went back over this thread (and other related threads) and most of the venomous statements hasn't come from evangelical Prostestant Christians, but been coming from a few individuals from different faiths altogether. I may have had some fault, and for that I apologize, but most of my comments were not belittling.

[Faithfulservant]

wow...

[lunamoth]

I have a few apologies to make, the most important one being to Thomas, which I shall save for last.

Dondi, yes. You are correct. That's what I get for dancing around what I most wanted to say. Not evangelical Christians such as yourself, whom I've always found to be one of the gentlest and most insightful posters here, and not these latest threads. I was referring to the fundamentalist fire and brimstone preachers we've had here in the past condemning everyone outside their narrow brand of belief to hell.

Second, apologies to Muslimwoman for derailing her thread. All of the posts I've made have been off-topic and are not meant to reflect on her or her intentions in starting this thread in any way.


+++

Thomas,

As I said in my PM, I accept your apology on the condition that you accept mine as well. Actually, you have no need to apologize, not even for the mistake of posting your PM to me publically by accident. You are right that reading it as a public post it came across to me much differently than if I were reading it as a private message, and my short-tempered response was largely due to this effect. However, reading back over my posts I realize that I have been rather thin-skinned over this whole issue and you are no where near deserving of the wrath I have been pouring out on you.

You and I have had a wonderful online friendship over these years, and I am sorry if I have neglected it as of late. I also apologize that I have not been more vocal in calling out for what it is the rampant Catholic-bashing that has gone on here lately and in the past. Perhaps as a mod, or just by my nature, I've been too circumspect and reticent about not seeming to 'take sides.' But, I am truely sorry about the things I've been reading in these threads lately re the Catholic Church. I don't agree with the Pope's style, but the comments you refer to in which people wish him dead are really beyond the pale. Likewise the plethora of posts and threads we've had in the past that call the RCC the beast etc. etc.. Obviously you've developed (out of necessity) a much tougher skin than I.

The comments I've made in my posts above are blunt, but they have been brought on by my honest reaction to these latest statements coming out of the Vatican. On top of that, elsewhere I've been recently told by Catholics (not you!) that the Anglican Church is founded on lies, murder, and greed, that it is just a weird social club, and that I am not part of the Body of Christ. Nothing new if it were coming from what's 'is name who was recently banned. Off-putting, to say the least, coming from folks whom I've previously felt kin to. But I should not have let that color my response to you, public or private. Anyway, all that is part of my own mea culpa in this apology.

Thomas, you are one of the gems of this forum and one of the main reasons I've stuck around this long. I've learned a lot about Christian theology and the Catholic faith from you, but more importantly you have simply been a beacon of light for me as a Christian friend. You are unwarvering in your message of the love of Christ, the love of God for us all, and an inspiration to me. You have lifted me when I was down, and laughed with me when I was up. I humbly apologize for treating you as anything other than the kind and generous person you have always been to me. I hope you will forgive me.

Yours,
Laurie

[Thomas]

Responses on 'A rhetorical question ...' lets draw the line here.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

On top of that, elsewhere I've been recently told by Catholics (not you!) that the Anglican Church is founded on lies, murder, and greed, that it is just a weird social club, and that I am not part of the Body of Christ.

OK lady, here's the deal.

You call me with names.

Later I call you with a date and time. All you gotta do is make sure, on that day, at that time, you got witnesses who will testify where you was.

Mr T.

[Muslimwoman]

{Sally tiptoes away from the thread and vows never to ask questions about the Catholic faith again, or Christianity, or Judaism or indeed Islam. Sally decides to discuss only knitting patterns from now on, even though she cannot knit}