Mass in Latin again

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

{Sally tiptoes away from the thread and vows never to ask questions about the Catholic faith again, or Christianity, or Judaism or indeed Islam. Sally decides to discuss only knitting patterns from now on, even though she cannot knit}

Knit one, pearl two.

That's all you need to know.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Knit one, pearl two.

That's all you need to know.

But do I go for the round neck or v neck? Oh life is just too confusing. Maybe I shall just talk about the mental musings of an orange peel.

Now, what would an orange peel think about..............?

[wil]

EGO eram trying efficio curriculum vieo per yarn in tergus quod lubricus off meus postulo can quisquam succurro mihi knit is sock?

[Thomas]

Actually Sally (if I may), I thought our bit of the discussion was going rather well, or at least, it's the kind of stuff I most enjoy talking about ... knitting? That's a bit too esoteric for me ...

Thomas

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Actually Sally (if I may), I thought our bit of the discussion was going rather well, or at least, it's the kind of stuff I most enjoy talking about ... knitting? That's a bit too esoteric for me ...

Thomas

Hi Thomas

I was thoroughly enjoying our discussion and was honestly begining to get to grips with a new concept. I have found since joining CR that the more I discuss these issues, with people of other faiths, the more I realise our beliefs are not so different and our love of G-d is paramount to us all.

I can't knit so I gave up on that topic, no idea what a knitting pearl is. I was going to discuss the mental musings of an orange peel but after some research I have found their views to be too acidic for my taste. So no idea what I can discuss now.

Salaam
Sally

[Muslimwoman]

Thomas

may I ask you a question about Pope's and please, please, please do not be offended. It is just something I have been curious about for a long time and have never dared ask anyone for fear of offending them but I hope you now realise that I am not that way inclined. Feel free to just ignore me if it is a rude question.

Pope Leo X, in the 16th century, was allegedly recorded as saying "it has served us well, this myth of Jesus". Now, we all accept that Jesus (pbuh) did exist and he was not simply a myth. So what, in your view, was the myth the Pope was refering to?

Personally, I have always taken it to mean the issue of Jesus (pbuh) being the actual son of G-d but of course you could not agree with this. So have you heard of this and if so, what is said about it in the Catholic faith?

Salaam
Sally

[Angus McLurk]

5.57pm {Sally tiptoes away from the thread and vows never to ask questions about the Catholic faith again, or Christianity, or Judaism or indeed Islam. Sally decides to discuss only knitting patterns from now on, even though she cannot knit}

7.50pm

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Thomas

may I ask you a question about Pope's and please, please, please do not be offended. It is just something I have been curious about for a long time and have never dared ask anyone for fear of offending them but I hope you now realise that I am not that way inclined. Feel free to just ignore me if it is a rude question.

Pope Leo X, in the 16th century, was allegedly recorded as saying "it has served us well, this myth of Jesus". Now, we all accept that Jesus (pbuh) did exist and he was not simply a myth. So what, in your view, was the myth the Pope was refering to?

Personally, I have always taken it to mean the issue of Jesus (pbuh) being the actual son of G-d but of course you could not agree with this. So have you heard of this and if so, what is said about it in the Catholic faith?

Salaam
Sally

You lasted 1hr 53mins, I love insatiable curiosity!! )

Edit note: This is Tao.. got stuck on this joke name...

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Angus McLurk

You lasted 1hr 53mins, I love insatiable curiosity!! )

LMAO.............Hi Tao, I just can't help myself, if I hadn't have had to go out for cigarettes I wouldn't have lasted that long.

Love the new name - suits you

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Thomas

OK lady, here's the deal.

You call me with names.

Later I call you with a date and time. All you gotta do is make sure, on that day, at that time, you got witnesses who will testify where you was.

Mr T.

Lol Mr. T. The scariest thing is that worst offender is in seminary studying to be a priest!

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Thomas
may I ask you a question about Pope's and please, please, please do not be offended.

OK, despite recent appearances, I am usually quite even tempered (three daughters, need to be), robust (three black belts in classical Japanese swordsmanship) and good-humoured (despite a secret wish to turn into a curmudgeon in my autumn years).

Actually, even if I say so myself, I think our discussion has been exemplary in its conduct. The only shortcoming is my failure to ask questions in return. My knowledge of Islam is from the writings of the Perennial Philosophy movement — Sufi-focussed and deeply metaphysical — but my working of it is rusty, so please do not take my lack of query as a lack of interest.

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Pope Leo X, in the 16th century, was allegedly recorded as saying "it has served us well, this myth of Jesus"...

Ahh, 'allegedly' ... to be honest, I had never heard that quote. I've had a look round, and can offer the following:

'The remark "It has served us well, this myth of Christ" is often attributed to him (Pope Leo X), despite the fact that it first appears in John Bale's fiercely antipapal treatise "The Pageant of the Popes" '
Pope Leo X - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

'His piety cannot truly be described as deep or spiritual, but that does not justify the continued repetition of his alleged remark: "How much we and our family have profited by the legend of Christ, is sufficiently evident to all ages." John Bale, the apostate English Carmelite, the first to give currency to these words in the time of Queen Elizabeth, was not even a contemporary of Leo. Among the many sayings of Leo X that have come down to us, there is not one of a sceptical nature. In his private life he preserved as pope the irreproachable reputation that he had borne when a cardinal. His character shows a remarkable mingling of good and bad traits.'
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Pope Leo X

But the best investigation seems to be here: Pope Leo X: Evaluation of His "Fable of Christ" Statement

The Catholic Encyclopedia gives quite a fair assessment of this pope, who managed to bankrupt the Church, although I find the term 'irreproachable reputation' a bit of a stretch. Like many of us, not a bad man, but not a good man, either. He enjoyed the high life — he was a Medici, after all — and was lavish towards rich and poor alike, and attracted the best (and no doubt worst) to Rome — artists, musicians, etc ... but if anything, it would appear he was one of those bankers who assumes that all the money in the bank is his.

+++

On the Perennialists, might I mention Martin Lings? (well there, I just have):
'A writer throughout this period, Lings output increased in the last quarter of his life. While his thesis work on Ahmad al-Alawi had been well-regarded, his most famous work was a biography about Muhammad, written in 1983, that earned him acclaim in the Muslim world, and prizes from the governments of Pakistan and Egypt. His work was hailed as the "best biography of the Prophet in English" at the National Seerat Conference in Islamabad. He also continued travelling extensively, although he made his home in Kent. He died in 2005.'
Martin Lings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

... I was lucky enough to catch his last two public lectures. Dr Lings was a close friend of René Guénon, a towering figure of the PP movement, a Sanskrit scholar, a professed expositor of Brahminic metaphysics, a central figure in the European esoteric movements of the last century, and a convert from Catholicism to Sufism. He moved to Cairo, where he lived quietly in a backstreet, his neighbours unaware that he was a Sufi Sheik and considered a world authority on traditional metaphysics.

Another profound influence upon me was Frithjof Schuon, a contemporary of Guénon's, and second only to him. Schuon was a Protestant who also became a Sufi. He moved to America, where he became mired in scandal. I am in touch with his publisher, who knew him and his wife (still living), and has done much to put the record straight. If you have heard of the English composer Sir John Taverner, I can tell you that he, a convert from Anglican to Greek Orthodoxy, and thence to Sufism, believes himself to be channeling Schuon in his later compositions.

I must also mention another Perennialist, Marco Pallis, a Greek convert to Tibetan Buddhism, who was instrumental in my recovery of faith in Catholicism.

Perhaps it is timely to inform you that I can go on a bit ...

Also that my towering intellect is only surpassed by my rugged good looks, etc., etc. and am obliged to live in a sealed box in a hole in the ground, because my presence might otherwise alter the destiny of the world ...

oh, and I tell lies.

Anyway, check out the Lings book, it might be useful?

Pax tecum,

Thomas

[flowperson]

[QUOTE=Thomas;
+++

Perhaps it is timely to inform you that I can go on a bit ...

Also that my towering intellect is only surpassed by my rugged good looks, etc., etc. and am obliged to live in a sealed box in a hole in the ground, because my presence might otherwise alter the destiny of the world ...

oh, and I tell lies.

Thomas[/QUOTE]

Hi Mr. T

Do you mean to say that there are two of us in the world with this problem?

Even though we've had our past differences in discussions here, your perspective and knowledge is always appreciated by me. So glad the beat goes on, because after all, we are all pursuing the emotionally-based oneness that we were taught to seek by the Master.

After all is said and done...love is the answer.

flow....

[Thomas]

Hi Flow, we're a rare breed, aren't we? Always a pleasure, sometimes an exasperation ... and vice versa ...

The real doozie is me and Andrew ... Andrew and I? ... He is the Irresistable Force, I am the Immovable Object ... or vice versa ... technically we can't both exist in the same timespace continuum simultaneously ... but we do ... isn't nature wonderful?

Anyways ...

... get the hence, sirrah, to the discussion of 'the semantics of religious experience' in the philosophy phorum, your input is required, toot sweet!

(the 'vice versa' repetition is from '1066 and all that', a wonderfully funny little book, and should always be said in italics)

Thomas

[wil]

I've spoke to a number of my Catholic friends (half of my son's scout troop is Catholic...hence our need to get up at o dark thirty on Sunday mornings from campouts so they can make it to mass)

Their understanding is that they must attend at least one mass a week in Latin... Many of the kids take Latin...even the Protestant boys...I would think it would be informative and enjoyable to see it in Latin in different areas of the world...a commonality that they would know despite the language of the land...

Needless to say this doesn't affect all the Catholics...only the ones that toe the line....we have some that really have issues when we don't make it back from camp...we need to go so far away for them to get some special dispensation....I surely don't understand it all.

All I know is every Sunday I want to be at church somewhere...not because I have to...but because I enjoy it!

And I wouldn't mind the latin....but would hate it if someone said I have to....superiority issues I suppose....

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Lol Mr. T. The scariest thing is that worst offender is in seminary studying to be a priest!

Yer-s-e ... if I were being a tad bumptious I might observe that certain American seminaries could do with a couple of semesters from yours truly when he's a DD.

I remember reading (and watching) The Exorcist when it was around, and there's a joke in the movie/book (?) about a Jesuit seminarian going to see his Spiritual Director, because he has a problem ... he believes in the Incarnation.

A joke in a movie OK, but it reflects what was going on in the US at the time ...

+++

Actually, I think I have a pretty good argument that would have enabled Henry VIII to secure a divorce from Catherine of Aragon within the context of Canon Law! Troble was he had already insisted that Rome 'bend the rules' to let the marriage go forward, so they were hardly inclinded to 'bend the rules' to let him out of it — no-one likes to carry the can for someone else twice!

Rome couldn't figure out why he just didn't ignore his wife, and bed whoever else he wanted, like all the other monarchs did. By the time the whole sorry mess came to light, both sides had dug themselves in too far to dig themselves out again.

Thomas

[Thomas]

hi Wil —

Originally Posted by wil

Their understanding is that they must attend at least one mass a week in Latin...

Confused about this, have 'they' always said Mass in Latin?

In Vatican II, the vernacular Mass was brought in alongside the Tridentine, and the way the Mass was celebrated was substantially altered, to make it 'more accessible' to the laity.

Many took this to mean the Latin Mass was outlawed, and in many places it effectively was — restrictions against it were imposed, and priests had to get diocesan permission to celebrate the Latin Rite. I used to drive half way across London to attend a Latin Mass.

All Pope Benedict has done is lifted the restriction. That's all. Now priests are free to choose, whereas before they had to ask permission. In the UK Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor has informed the Pope that there is already adequate presentation of the Latin Mass (some might dispute that) and that no changes will be effected.

Thomas