Mass in Latin again

[Muslimwoman]

I just heard on the news that the Pope has decreed that Mass will return to Latin.

I was wondering how people feel about this.

Does anyone know the thinking behind it?
Do you feel it is a backward or forward step?
If you are Catholic will you now try to learn Latin for Mass?

Would love to hear others thoughts.

MW

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I just heard on the news that the Pope has decreed that Mass will return to Latin.

I was wondering how people feel about this.

Does anyone know the thinking behind it?
Do you feel it is a backward or forward step?
If you are Catholic will you now try to learn Latin for Mass?

Would love to hear others thoughts.

MW

if one cannot understand it, it is worthless.

[InLove]

There is more to this story than a simple argument over language. In the original Latin mass, there are prayers for the conversion of Jews, and I think this is what many people, both Jewish and Catholic, find disturbing.

ARTICLE

[LeoSalinas22]

i am sorry, but this changing language just for the sake of tradition stinks of arrogance and retardedness. and the pope is supposed to be a leader? he is being a very poor example to christianity. he should serve his fellow christian members and not the other way around. i mean, Jesus Himself washed the feet of His disciples. when has anyone ever seen the pope do THAT! oh well, not much we can do about that, right? and everyone has eyes but they won't see and everyone has ears, but we just won't listen to reason.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I just heard on the news that the Pope has decreed that Mass will return to Latin.

I was wondering how people feel about this.

Does anyone know the thinking behind it?
Do you feel it is a backward or forward step?
If you are Catholic will you now try to learn Latin for Mass?

Would love to hear others thoughts.

MW

I understand Latin so it is not a problem... Then again, I do not listen to mass, so again it is not a problem. Such a great old way of tongue it shouldn't be allowed to perish, and should be looked after, like history A quote from Cicero, If I may.. "Assiduus usus uni rei deditus et ingenium et artem saepe vincit."

[LeoSalinas22]

A quote from Cicero, If I may.. "Assiduus usus uni rei deditus et ingenium et artem saepe vincit."

y porque no nos traduces lo que dices agui, 17th? o no somos suficientes inteligentes para ti?

[17th Angel]

No it was kinda meant to be ironic... Has nothing to do with intelligence... Here English translation.... "Constant pratice devoted to one subject often outdues both intelligence and skill" Practice makes perfect... To the laymen.

[KarimK]

I have no idea what the point of the mass in Latin is. Okay, maybe to please the ultras. But what's the point of pleasing these people? If I were a catholic, I wouldn't want to have them as a part of my community : wanting to have the mass in Latin goes hand in hand (usually) with other opinions that are often reactionary. It's not about the mass being in Latin itself.. it's about the people who want the mass to be in Latin.

God! Vatican 2 was FORTY years ago. Move on.

Whatever could be the spiritual point of having mass in Latin? Maybe there IS one, but I fail to see it.

Besides, masses could be celebrated in Latin before... the priest (I think) only had to ask permission from the Archbishop (or from the Vatican, not sure).

but this changing language just for the sake of tradition stinks of arrogance and retardedness.

hear, hear.

as for the thing about the Jews... isn't it possible to just take it out of the mass and that's it?

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

A quote from Cicero

Hey 17th, are you watching Rome on the Beeb? Cicero was murdered last night...

s.

[dauer]

I did a little searching around the Catholic blogosphere and it looks like this has been taken a little out of context. It's not that the English mass is being replaced, but that the Latin mass, which had been forbidden, is being allowed for those communities that want it who had unfairly had it taken away. In that light I don't really think the references to Judaism are so heinous. There's nothing enforced to say that they should be said. And most religions have some triumphalist liturgy, including Judaism. See the Aleinu player.

As one catholic blogger pointed out, there are other triumphalist references in Catholic liturgy as well. In her opinion there needs to be a change in those words too, but to me as a Jew it's really not an issue. Jewish-Catholic relations are pretty good. I don't see that changing. Michael Lerner had a very different view but it was only sent via e-mail, followed by affirming comments by a Catholic and then discussion and disagreement from people who didn't like what he originally said. But unfortunately it doesn't seem to have been published to the web, just e-mailed. If anyone would like a copy let me know and I'll fwd it to you.

Dauer

[Snoopy]

I’m not a fan of triumphalist stuff wherever it may be but as Dauer intimates, I’m sure there’s a lot of it about. I don’t think the British national anthem is too right on, is it?

That aside, I think it’s good to have it in the language of the people, so that they can understand the literal meaning of it, but it surely is also good for it to be in the “original” Latin language. I’m not a Catholic but I think Latin and Mass are meant for each other. You can still appreciate (for want of a better word) something like this without understanding the literal meaning of the words, I believe. I don’t understand a word of Tibetan, but I find Tibetan Buddhist chant profoundly moving. Such connections transcend words.

s.

[Bruce Michael]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I just heard on the news that the Pope has decreed that Mass will return to Latin.

I was wondering how people feel about this.

Does anyone know the thinking behind it?
Do you feel it is a backward or forward step?
If you are Catholic will you now try to learn Latin for Mass?

Would love to hear others thoughts.

MW

Hi Muslimwoman,
It's a step, and it may be a forward step.
It doesn't matter what language the Mass is said in as long as the priest understands it.
Facing away from the congregation can also be helpful to the priest, aiding concentration.
There has been a change in the response recently too.

Didyouknow the phrase "hocus pocus" comes form the Latin Mass?

God Bless,
Br.Bruce

[Muslimwoman]

Hi Everyone

I had no particular view about the subject, I was just surprised when I heard it on the news, as so many men died trying to translate mass so the 'ordinary' people could understand it and feel more a part of their faith. So I suppose it saddened me as it felt like a step backward for the 'common man'.

I also, of course, thought back to the tactless speach writer who made the Islam reference in the Pope's speach not so long ago. So I guess I was just wondering in what direction the Vatican is currently heading.

Br. Bruce - I didn't know where hocus pocus came from, do you know how this came about?

Salaam

[Thomas]

Hi Muslimwoman —

InLove — Before anything else it's worth noting an anti-Christian agenda at the highest levels of the BBC (a fact they themselves have been obliged to acknowledge).

Dauer's comments are by far the most balanced here, and put the BBC to shame. The point raised by them highlights one line, in one liturgy, said once a year. If the Jews are offended, I have little doubt it would be removed, what it says is hardly 'central' to the Christian mysteries.

The BBC are good at this sort of thing. Remember they went through 90 minutes of a speech to draw out one comment, and then sent that one out-of-context extract to every Islamic news agency asking for a response. Hardly fair or responsible — a nun was shot dead on account of it.

+++

Allow me a personal reflection on the point at hand:

I feel it neither a backward nor forward step — rather the recovery of a forgotten treasure of Catholicism, so that's no bad thing — the Pope is simply giving back something that was wrongly denied.

The issue of 'understanding' depends whether one's understanding is entirely rationally based. many Catholics 'understand' the Mass said in the vernacular, but whether they understand what that means, is another matter (I doubt it, they are not theologians) — but they do understand what it signifies. For some centuries the mass in Latin did not seem to debarr the common folk — it seems that today, unless we are served everything on a plate with no necessity to think for ourselves, it's just too much hard work...

Curiously, I read most of the contrary comments on this thread as ignorant of the reality, and therefore reactionary, especially when many aren't Catholic, and haven't even bothered (like Dauer) to understand the issue. The BBC insinuate triumphalism, and everyone takes the bait.

Lastly, on the Mass itself —

As I have indicated, the Mass is a Rite, and a Mystery, two things that modernism and relativism have always sought to do away with.

The modern Catholic mass is in some danger of becoming a celebration of self, as exemplified by the 'happy-clappy' celebration which too often implies to others 'hey look, we're Christians, isn't it fantastic!' — something that is in fact utterly triumphalist way beyond the Latin Rite. I doubt the Apostles were 'happy-clappy' at the Last Supper, so I'm not sure where that example came from.

The symbolism of the Mass is dreadful, and shows just how bankrupt the modernising element had become.

In the Old Style the priest and people faced the Tabernacle, all equal before God, the priest simply fulfilling a function on behalf of the community, of which he is a member. The whole Mass is an approach to 'sliding back the veil' and opening the Tabernacle itself was a symbol of the rolling away of the stone.

Now the priest faces the people, and inescapably becomes the star of the show, people look at him, not the tabernacle. In some churches the tabernacle does not even occupy the central place behind the altar. God is relegated to 'offstage' where in the Latin Rite God is very much 'center stage'.

The Mass has been said in Latin for some 1500+ years. It's been said in the vernacular for some 40-odd. It's got a long way to go, and a lot of improvements to make, before it comes anywhere near trhe Mystery and majesty of the Latin Rite — but if done properly, and with due reverence, it will stand alongside the other.

That was what Vatican II wanted, after all.

Thomas

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Hey 17th, are you watching Rome on the Beeb? Cicero was murdered last night...

s.

For realz.....? Heh...