Meaning of trinity

[InLove]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

John the Baptist still has followers in southern Iraq that reject Jesus.

Really? I have never heard this before. Who are they?

Otherwise we still haven't seen a comforter or Christ return.

I have always thought that the "comforter" was the Holy Spirit, which was alive in the form of Jesus, and when Jesus ascended, He promised His followers that God would send that same Spirit to comfort them in His absence. What are your thoughts here? Or anyone else's?

InPeace,
InLove

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

bad news...you do not have the immediate and full reunion with God that Christianity promises. And yes, it is based upon works in this life. How well off we are in the next life depends upon how well we develop our virtues in this this. Baha'is will compare it to being born crippled in the next life if we, say, fail to be as chaste in this life as God wishes us to be.

Yes, Abdul Baha upheld the Bible, but anything that does not agree with the Baha'i Faith is considered to be read 'spiritually,' or metaphorically.

My impression was that Baha'i's in trying to get the best of all worlds, would have lived life loosely, but from what you're saying, it seems to be driven by "moral achievements." I'd be interested to know if this is just one group of Baha'i's or all of them, as in Christianity there are too some "moral-achievement-bound" (works) groups that have very rigid lifestyles.

I had thought Baha'i's were quite loose on these concepts but it seems you're giving me the impression it's more authoritarian than that. ie. Can you be a false Baha'i? Do they battle heresies and false teachings? Conspiracy theories concerning infidels, non-conformists and heretics? Satan on the loose?

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Patti is quite right...the Baha'i Faith equates development of our virtues and obedience to the laws of God (as brought by Baha'u'llah) with salvation, some of which, to my best discernment, are not in the Spirit of Love. Justice overshadows Mercy.

Christianity is almost the opposite of this. We see the outflow of the virtues as a result of loving God and each other, and we see the law as that which condemns us, while the love of Christ sets us free.

In my view, mercy is not contrary to, but conducive to the goals and purposes of Justice. It's just that there is the Legalist notion (Systematic Law: the impersonal policy of rules and protocols) of Justice and the personal notion (Natural Law: justified by our relationship with God/our Creator) of Justice. Systematic Law dictates that those who cannot conform are useless, damaged goods to be thrown into the rubbish dump. Natural Law dictates that because God created us, we are all of value as human beings. Everybody is to be accepted, nobody is to be rejected.

Systematic Law condemns us for failure to conform, but God created us. The Justice of Natural Law would say that God is ultimately responsible for His creation, and if it is damaged and faulty, it's His responsibility to fix it, especially if He's dealing with an intelligence species.

Even in today's society, manufacturers of modern technology have a responsibility to produce goods that meets standards of safety and to perform at a level that is expected by consumers. The Natural Law for human beings is a bit like that, God can't just dump us. He made us.

There is a child in all of us, and you never reject children. Think of all those innocent, miserable kids being left in the alley. We all carry that innocent, childish yearning.....the feeling of abandonment.....being left alone.....nobody there to love you.....left to fend for yourself.

Justice isn't all about punishment. That's what Legalistic Justice proclaims. Break the rules, violate moral principles and you pay. It is utilitarian and impersonal. Human beings are just tools, instruments to be used. Human beings are not valued. Legalistic Justice is the belief that you have to be impartial to be just. That is the prevailing notion about justice. Impartiality!!!

I thought "real Justice" was about healing the pain that comes from wrongdoing -- ie. personal justice. Examples in modern society include stuff like psychological counselling. It's where justice isn't dominated by notions of punishment, but where we offer sympathy for criminals, drug addicts and thugs -- that they suffer a disease. They've got personal problems, sick minds. They need healing. Law breakers are given time in jail to reflect and reform. We appreciate the personal/emotional needs of lawbreakers and wrongdoers.

Actually, with Christianity, we haven't quite moved on from the idea of justice requiring punishment. We say someone needed pay for our sins.

But modern society already offers psychological counselling and time to reflect and reform for lawbreakers and wrongdoers. There is nothing to forgive!!! We understand the personal struggles of these lawbreakers and wrongdoers!!! In the 21st century we're supposed to be proclaiming that Christ is the Wonderful Counsellor, not the sin-payer. The song of sin-payer is a bit outdated I reckon.

While there are Christian organisations offering counselling, the theology, the story that we tell, hasn't caught up with the times. I think that's why so many people are disgusted with Christianity. No need for a sin-payer when you can have a psychologist, but I thought that was Jesus' role. You're not really a law-breaker, just a broken person needing help. When the times change we need to change the story.....

For too long we've told people that Jesus was the sin-payer (16th-century) but not the counsellor (1st and 21st-century: what happened in between?), the story where there was never really anything to forgive, we just needed help......

To achieve Justice, there is no need for punishment when people are going to reform. This has been recognised by modern society, and in a secular, non-spiritual sense by churches that hire psychologists. But the theology, in an effort to retain tradition has unfortunately lagged behind!!! We need to update our theology!!!

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by InLove

I have always thought that the "comforter" was the Holy Spirit...

he is.

[Postmaster]

Originally Posted by InLove

Really? I have never heard this before. Who are they?

The Mandeans and this is not an assumption, they actually do follow John the Baptist and they not Muslims either.
Mandaeism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[InLove]

Thanks, Postmaster. Sabeans, basically? Light bulb moment, I think. This actually helps me with some other studies in which I am presently involved.

[Postmaster]

The Sabeans and Mandeans are different groups I think.

I quick look on some online information

Sabeanism was unquestionably the main religious belief of the ancient Chaldeans and Assyrians, but likewise the very foundation stone of practically all the great religions of all the great peoples of the past. Upon the authority of the Jewish scholar Maimonides, scholars have considered the Sabeans as an ancient race whose principal religion was that of star-worship and closely affiliated with the Babylonians and Syrians. But the Sabeans were not a race, but those who followed and practiced the divine astrological astrolatry of the hoariest antiquity. Mohammed in the Koran mentions a sect between the Jews and Christians called Sabi una -- to whom certain privileges were granted; older Moslem theologians were agreed that the Sabeans possessed manuscripts which they regarded in the light of a revelation, and the Mandeans came under the same protection granted to the Sabeans; hence the Mandeans also came to be regarded as Sabeans. Another sect of polytheists, the Harranians (830 AD), also affiliated with the Sabeans and shielded themselves under the same privileges; they were a remnant of a Mesopotamian cult, and star-worship had a prominent place in their system.

Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary, Sa-Sal, Theosophical U Press

[InLove]

Thanks again, Postmaster. I'm thinking that even though the term in not exactly the same, there are places where it is interchangeable. Kind of like "Christian" and "Baptist". Anyway, it is helpful in my aforementioned studies.

That said, I hope we have not completely derailed this thread. Sorry about that...it was just very interesting to me, and I wanted to find out a couple of things. Back to the scheduled program, perhaps?

Marb, I can see the Trinity in the Genesis passage. That is why I don't agree with the idea that the Trinity concept was concocted by later Christians to fit into a political agenda. Don't know if that helps. I can try and expound a bit, if you like, but it might take me a few days to articulate my thoughts.

InPeace,
InLove

[Faithfulservant]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God

The trinity is God the Word and The Spirit of God

[InLove]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

The trinity is God the Word and The Spirit of God

(I sometimes make things more difficult than they really are. )

[BlaznFattyz]

that which one does they all do, all three being the one true living god.
as you see above the creation of all things is thru the father, word and spirit.
so it is with the resurrection of jesus christ.

The Father raised Christ: The God of our Fathers raised up Jesus...It shall be imputed to us who believe in him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead...we should not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead.

The Holy Spirit raised Christ: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Jesus raised Himself: Destroy this temple and I will raise it up...Therefore does my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again...No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

Therefore with this knowledge of God, know this: Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God."

[Neemai]

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

Could anyone help with a Christian understanding of this quotation? I'm interested because in Vaishnavism the exact same teaching is given, but I am not sure if the understanding would be the same?

For example, what is the Word that was God?
Is there a Word that is God?

Best Wishes,

... Neemai

[LeoSalinas22]

i don't understand this. i myself am having trouble recognizing that Christ is God. i mean aren't there more scriptures about Christ praying or talking to God or vice versa? from what i have read in the bible, Christ is mainly an example, a light for man to follow. i just don't see Christ as God. Christ was a man just like the rest of us. He was tempted like us but there was no sin in Him.

[arthra]

Since this is the Christian Forum I only hope to reply to comments here about Baha'i Faith ...and my purpose is more along the lines of information... You could also pursue any topics y0ou wish about Baha'i Faith on the Baha'i Forum...

Saltmeister wrote:

My impression was that Baha'i's in trying to get the best of all worlds, would have lived life loosely, but from what you're saying, it seems to be driven by "moral achievements." I'd be interested to know if this is just one group of Baha'i's or all of them, as in Christianity there are too some "moral-achievement-bound" (works) groups that have very rigid lifestyles.

My rep[ly:

Baha'is are governed by revealed laws and principles and we're told that the developement of virtues in this life is essential for our spiritual well being and advancement in the next life in the spiritual worlds. Baha'is center their spiritual life around revealed Writings and the authoritative interpretations of Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. There were some splinter groups but the vast majority of Baha'is are united as unity is for us an essential virtue..

Saltmeister wrote:

I had thought Baha'i's were quite loose on these concepts but it seems you're giving me the impression it's more authoritarian than that. ie. Can you be a false Baha'i? Do they battle heresies and false teachings? Conspiracy theories concerning infidels, non-conformists and heretics? Satan on the loose?

My reply:

Baha'is do have a view of Satan as a person or even an angel... Evil is a shadow or absence of light. What the Faith revolves around is the Covenant of our Faith and revealed Writings withj authoritative interpretations as noted above. Heresies, infidels and such are more of a Christian or Muslim issue that for us in my view. A Baha'i recognizes Baha'u'llah as the Promised One of the major religions and that there are certain institutions and ordinances that must be followed.

As to the trinity, Baha'is believe in the concept in so far as you would have God as an Unknowable Essence radiating His Light (the Holy Spirit) and refelcted in His Manifestation(s) (Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha'u'llah, etc.).

Hope that helps!

- Art

[arthra]

Luna moth wrote:

Muhammad and the Bab we separated by over a thousand years, but the Bab and Baha'u'llah were both Christ Manifest concurrently. How, exactly does that fit with prophecies of the Bible, Old or New Testament?

My comment:

Understanding that this is the Christian Forum, please allow me to respond to this.

It is true that we Baha'is accept the Return of Christ as the Bab as well as Baha'u'llah that both fulfilled prophecies of the Bible and Qur'an... We call the Bab and Baha'u'llah "twin Manifestation" but the dispensation of the Bab lasted only nineteen years and that of Him Whom God would make manifest (Baha'u'llah) prophecied by the Bab and the dispensation of Baha'u'llah will last we believe in no less than a thousand years.

The pattern of the Bab and Baha'u'llah though should be familiar I think to Christians as you had John the Baptist who preceded Christ and prepared the way for Him...thus the early disciples of Jesus had been disciples of John earlier similar to the Babis who recognized Baha'u'llah..

Also the martyrdom of the young Bab at thirty or so years bears many stricking paralllels as you recall to the crucifixion of Christ together with the mock trial and the persecution of the early believers.

I close here.... and anyone who wishes to pursue further questiosn is welcome on the Baha'i Forum as we would be true to CR's garden approach here..

- Art

[mee]

This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. ....John 17;3 Jesus is not God , but we have to take in knowledge about the true God AND jesus christ ....the bible does not teach the trinity