Medals of honor too christian?

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

Whatever dude.

I thought I made myself pretty clear, but understanding one another sometimes proves difficult to achieve.

At least I won't try to destroy you over it.

I rarely see a genuine effort on either side of a conflict CZ, though I would like to believe that the wish itself is sincere. What I have seen so far is a hard headed explanation of a persons values and POV. This is supposed to pass for an effort to reach understanding, but in reality it tends to entrench the opposition even further.

As to whether or not military action really promotes freedom...
It depends pretty much on the leaders that wield that sword. A soldier cannot choose, he can only act. And there is much honor in what the individual soldier is and does, for who else writes a blank check to his country with payment due in full any time any where to include his very life? Imagine the type of person it takes to do that time and time again with the same fervor that anyone else reserves only for protection of the immediate family.

Perhaps someday the human race will "catch -up" to the ideals of non-violence. Perhaps someday the skills I have cultivated for so many years will be obsolete. I think I would be grateful for that.

[greymare]

FIRST : I said "support our troops"
SECOND: I havent glorified war.

Dont get the two confused.

Im sure "stop it, I dont like it" works for some. But not here, not in the real world.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by greymare

FIRST : I said "support our troops"
SECOND: I havent glorified war.

Actually, it was your statement, "Oh and you can enjoy the freedom that you do because of those soldiers that have fought and died in days past," that I've heard so many times in the past and decided to address.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Paladin

As to whether or not military action really promotes freedom...
It depends pretty much on the leaders that wield that sword. A soldier cannot choose, he can only act. And there is much honor in what the individual soldier is and does, for who else writes a blank check to his country with payment due in full any time any where to include his very life?

Yes. I believe I've stated that I feel sympathy for the soldier.

Originally Posted by Paladin

Imagine the type of person it takes to do that time and time again with the same fervor that anyone else reserves only for protection of the immediate family.

I think you're overly romanticizing the soldier. What type of person serves in the military? All types. Some seeking to serve, some seeking to escape, some dedicated, some lazy, some heroic, some cowardly, some altruistic, some sadistic. Let's be honest about this. It may help to bridge this gap of understanding between us.

[Paladin]

Yup, you find all kinds in the military. In the ten years I served I worked with all kinds of characters but very few that didn't fit the category I mentioned. What was your experience in this?

As far as bridging the gap, I really don't think there is one. I'm aware of the virtue of non-violence and I don't think war is a good idea, never did, but I also recognize the need for someone to be willing to protect others.

I see the corruption of the world, using young people filled with patriotic zeal to further corporate goals. I even protested the start of the war in Iraq because I wasn't fooled into believing the neo con propaganda.
But I know the role of the soldier all too well, and I realize what I am. I respect your position and know that you are pointing in a direction that the human race needs to go toward if we are to evolve past the ethno/theocentric ideas into a world centric ideology.
Perhaps you see in many members here a rather provincial attitude, and in that you aren't far wrong, but that is embedded within me as well, it is a part that is intrinsic into the person I am. So be it.
I think all of us applaud the effort to move beyond what we are, for the human race to someday achieve a higher way of being, beyond the need of violence. Unfortunately, that day is not yet here.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Yup, you find all kinds in the military. In the ten years I served I worked with all kinds of characters but very few that didn't fit the category I mentioned. What was your experience in this?

My experience is that the world is filled with all kinds... so I figured the army wouldn't be any different.

Originally Posted by Paladin

Perhaps you see in many members here a rather provincial attitude, and in that you aren't far wrong...

Greymare may not believe it, but I am not trying to paint her in a negative light. I have little idea what she's like as a person, but from the small clues I've picked up in this forum I have a positive impression of her.

However, a forum is about ideas and our ability to solidify them into words. And while I'd like to think of myself as a pacifist, I can be combative when faced with arguments based on tired clichés*, or poor logic instead of penetrating thought. We have to expect that our assumptions will be challenged and put to the test. Why else would we be here at IO?



*Especially when those clichés potentially perpetuate violence.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

My experience is that the world is filled with all kinds... so I figured the army wouldn't be any different.



Greymare may not believe it, but I am not trying to paint her in a negative light. I have little idea what she's like as a person, but from the small clues I've picked up in this forum I have a positive impression of her.

However, a forum is about ideas and our ability to solidify them into words. And while I'd like to think of myself as a pacifist, I can be combative when faced with arguments based on tired clichés*, or poor logic instead of penetrating thought. We have to expect that our assumptions will be challenged and put to the test. Why else would we be here at IO?



*Especially when those clichés potentially perpetuate violence.

Really?

I think people are rarely swayed away from a value system by solid logic or reasoning. My Wife has been reading some brain research that seems to indicate our brains aren't as logically oriented as we might like to think. One thing for sure though is when at loggerheads people will defend their value systems to the death. Notice the reaction you get when there is even a hint of hierarchy in the values you espouse? There isn't anything wrong with what you are putting forth per se, but for some reason there is much resistance. Why do you suppose that is?

[greymare]

I think that I should retire from this argument/forum Cz before i say some things I may regret at a later time. You will never appreciate how I feel and I simply dont understand the "pacifists, lets shake hands and be friends" attitude.
Greymare out.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by greymare

... and I simply dont understand the "pacifists, lets shake hands and be friends" attitude.

You really don't understand this? I frankly find that difficult to believe.

It's based on compassion, forgiveness and empathy. I'm sure you possess these qualities.

Take the Middle East for instance. It seems caught in an endless cycle of revenge killing. Somebody is going to have to endure being the last one hurt without resorting to yet another round of retribution. They might even have to endure being the last one hurt multiple times. But that will be the only way to end the violence.

Jesus said to turn the other cheek. He didn't say to do it once, or twice and then kick some ass. We need to turn the other cheek over and over until we convince our opponent that we are not his enemy, that whatever they feel they gain from violence can be more easily achieved through peaceful means. And the peaceful, because of the fact that they advocate and practice peace will always have to endure the last blows.

We've tried the other method for thousands of years. Domination and suppression have proven ineffective. It's time to try something new.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by greymare

Actually, FK I have 2 sons serving my country and a brother. And I am very proud.
"if you dont stand behind our troops, feel free to stand infront of them".

Love the Grey

Ooorah for your boys, Grey. That's one thing.

Medals are a country's thanks. Medals at this level might as well be artifacts of Christ's cross. That's two.

But, Francis is right.

Chris

[Snoopy]

At the risking of entrenching (no pun intended)…

Clearly my experience is not derived from being a member of the armed forces, since with my views I was never going to be signing up.

My experience is this:

Originally Posted by Paladin

A soldier cannot choose, he can only act.

All death and injury in war is sad and regrettable. It seems when a British soldier is doing their duty, they are killing insurgents. “Insurgents” are less human than human and probably don’t have loved ones, family and reasons for doing what they do; only the good guys have legitimate reasons for warfare it seems. I am sorry to hear on the news when a British soldier (ie a human) is killed. But I shall never understand the views expressed by those they leave behind, however natural the grief itself is. The common sentiment seems to be that it was in some way a shock or unexpected or wrong. What did they think their son / daughter / partner was signing up for when they joined the armed forces? A macramé class? How dare those nasty insurgents fire back when our lovely son is just doing his duty and doing what he always wanted to and was shooting at them?

Imagine the type of person it takes to do that time and time again with the same fervor that anyone else reserves only for protection of the immediate family.

Around here there has recently been a big recruiting drive by the army (eg expensive, locally tailored advertising and army personnel approaching young people in the street). I believe the “type of person” who signed up (as per a quote from one in a local paper) was, very understandably, doing so because there’s “no work for young people around here.” Around here joining the army offers an escape from a no-hope situation (locally, for young people with few or no qualifications).

The “type of person” they target will clearly be different when recruiting from universities; there they focus on “professional careers”.


s.

[GlorytoGod]

Its easy to sit at our computers testiculating as we pass judgement on others and take the moral high ground. But unless we have been there and experienced what they are going through thats all it is testiculating

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by greymare

Im sure "stop it, I dont like it" works for some. But not here, not in the real world.

I understand that view I think grey. Everyone has their own “real” view of the world. Here’s my real world (I think cz has an optimistic one):

I would like it to stop. I don’t like it. This attitude doesn’t seem to hold sway very often though, nor is it very popular it seems, the status quo is the way to go. Also, my reality is that as a species we are not intelligent enough not to constantly engage in wars for one reason or another. So wars will carry on, only perhaps ending when we have managed to make ourselves extinct.


Just because I don’t like something and would like it to stop, knowing that it won’t does not mean that I have to condone it or participate in it in any way.

Real enough?

s.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by greymare

I simply dont understand the "pacifists, lets shake hands and be friends" attitude.

The conflict in Northern Ireland went on for as long as it did precisely because sufficient people did not have this “attitude”. Northern Ireland is not full of “pacifists” (in the political sense) and the two communities have not perhaps suddenly become the best of friends (hardly surprising after so many years of bloodshed). BUT…the Northern Ireland conflict only came to an end when enough people on both sides finally got sick of all the tit-for-tat killing. In effect, in practical terms, in REAL terms, the conflict ended when both sides put down their weapons and shook hands.

s.

[17th Angel]

Snoopy.... The conflict ended did it? *chuckles*