Messiah--what are your thoughts?

[taijasi]

Cool. I know the following lyrics technicaly belong on another thread ... but I've already posted my favorite! (Within You, Without You)

I seem to be on a Beatles kick or something, John Lennon, tonight. This seems relevant:

How in the world you gonna see
Laughin' at fools like me
Who in the hell d'you think you are
A super star
Well, right you are

Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Well we all shine on
Ev'ryone come on

Instant Karma's gonna get you
Gonna knock you off your feet
Better recognize your brothers
Ev'ryone you meet
Why in the world are we here
Surely not to live in pain and fear
Why on earth are you there
When you're ev'rywhere
Come and get your share

Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Yeah we all shine on
Come on and on and on on on
Yeah yeah, alright, uh huh, ah

Well we all shine on
Like the moon and the stars and the sun
Yeah we all shine on
On and on and on on and on

... a SuperStar! Right you are!

And in light of that, apologies, Bandit, if I was a bit heavyhanded in my reply to you. Ironically, I was just meaning to say, lighten up! Must have needed my daily dose of Beatles ...

andrew

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Bandit

i had no idea people feel my beliefs are not necessary. a real eye opener.
i am just thrilled how messiahless people view those with a messiah as a distraction, crippled & on crutches.

...

in the stead of other Christians around here (& those with different Messiah beliefs) & coming from a site that preaches equality of all beliefs, i would appreciate my beliefs in Jesus my Messiah not being classified as a blind mans wheel chair, prepared for death bed extermination.

I would certainly be disappointed if it were the case of this being posted - my apologies if my own post gave that impression, and if anyone else posts that directly, please do let me know via PM or email and I'll try to address the matter for you.

[Pathless]

I had to take a breather from this one and sleep on it. I think that maybe I should start by trying to explain my own perspective further, and then maybe we'll find that some of the stark differences and points of dispute are a little softer than some percieve them to be.

First, Bandit, I don't feel your beliefs are not necessary, and I apologize if you took my words to mean that. I also want to apologize if you felt attacked by my view that some people--and please note that I did say some people, not all--use the idea of an external messiah as a spritual crutch or end up using it as an excuse for not striving towards light and goodness in their own lives. I recognize that I am making a judgment, but I am not going to apologize for my view, because it is how I feel about it. I am sorry if you felt like that was directed at you personally--which it wasn't--or at Christians in general--which it also wasn't. If you go back and read my initial post, you will see that I was not singling out Christians. In fact, I named Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, and Christians in my original post, and I don't think that the concept of a messiah is limited to just those four groups. I simply couldn't think of anymore to name.

I would like to shift the focus away from the Christian faith, becuase it is clearly a tender area. Instead, let's look at Buddhism. Occasionally, I practice meditation with a Buddhist group. My experience with this group and with Buddhists in general is that sometimes people hold themselves up to dogmatic standards based on what they feel are hard and fast concepts of practice set by the Buddha. In my mind, they are engaging in "messianic externalizing;" that is, rather than comprehending, absorbing, and then thinking critically about Buddhist teachings--thereby internalizing them and applying them to their own lives in unique, individualized (yet still universal) ways--they simply set out to conform to a standard of practice or morality.

Am I saying this is wrong for everyone? No. But it is not what works for me. So, this is my perspective and my truth. And I feel compelled to express that, not to proselytise, but because it helps me further refine and define who I am as a person. This is the main reason I participate in this forum. I am not hear to attack or offend anyone. It seems that sometimes that may be an unfortunate side effect, but I'd venture to say that it holds true for all of us to some extent.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Then I will leave you alone, and to your bliss.

Hi Q,

I don't expect you to leave me alone, nor do I even want that. What I would like, however, is to not feel disrespected when I read your posts. I can work on this from my end to an extent, but I have to tell you that I am having a hard time with it. Because of that, I'd like to ask you to be a bit more open in our discussions. When you type things like, "Nope. I'm right on this one," that does make me feel disresprected and marginalized. It's like you just told me your side of it, then turned your back on me and walked away. Not a nice feeling.

Second thing, I don't live in bliss or ignorance. I do like to cultivate bliss and joy, but I'm really not someone who goes around with my eyes closed to the problems of the world. It's because I am disturbed by the way things are that I work to cultivate joy, not only in my own little life, but in communites as well.

I typed the story about the disagreement between my partner and I because I wanted to point out that just because people get angry with each other does not make them inherently bad. It's my opinion that these kinds of disagreements, and anger as an emotion, are tools that we can use to build stronger relationships and a stronger connection with others.

Finally, I want to make some distinctions between messiah and God. First, the idea that there can be both an externalized view of messiah and an internalized view of messiah has already been touched on in this thread. For me, an externalized messiah is not a useful tool. I'm not saying that it is a useless concept across the board or can't work for anyone at all. Just for me, it's not a useful concept. On the other hand, I find that I can appreciate Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, and others if I see them as abstract qualities that are imminent within me, waiting to be called out. That's how I feel about it--again, not trying to clash with or offend anyone as much as I am trying to express my perspective. Now I also believe that one can believe in God or a higher order without subscribing to any notion of messiah. For example, pantheism and other imminent sorts of spirituality strive to see God shining through all of creation--animals, plantes, bricks,stones, and dung as well as righteous human beings. This to me is a conept of God that lacks the idea of messiah. At most, I would say that someone who practices a spirituality of immanence sees the messiah in dung as well as in a "perfected" human--which thereby would render the concept of messiah effectively meaningless... perhaps? Because nothing can any longer be set apart as more perfect than anything else, there is no externalized model of perfection that you have to emulate.

I think this idea of emulating or conforming to a model of perfection is what I find most problematic. To me, it could be illustrated by trying to shove a brick into a a Christmas-tree cookie mold. The brick is not going to fit and the mold is probably going to break. So, either you end up with a broken standard (the cookie mold), or a "brick" with awful self-esteem, since it can't live up to the Christmas tree standard that it's "supposed" to.

One important question that arises then, for me, is: do we want only those that can fit into the cookie mold to survive, or do want to have a vibrant, diverse community of bricks, sh!t, people, wolves, ladybugs, creeper vines, and purple cacti?

I'm sure you can guess my answer.

Respectfully,
P

[Pathless]

To clear up my perspective on the idea of the "moral compass":

Personally, I don't believe that people are inherently corrupt, but I do agree that we can lose our way if we do not put the proper introspective effort into our lives. And I would also agree that it is exceedingly easy to lose our way very quickly in these modern times of the quick fix, instant gratification, constant titilation of all sorts, and--yes--debased morals.

I would say that the idea of a messiah, whether external or internal, is a tool that we can use to align our moral compass, but it is by no means mandatory.

[wil]

don Miguel Ruiz- four agreements..

1. be impeccapble with your word
2. Don't take anything personally
3. Don't make assumptions
4. Always do your best.

We are always playing on the edge of fire, dangerously close to the heat, but we are adults and enjoy the warmth and comaraderie, we just gotta put up with the smoke in our eyes every now and then...

For the most part all major hair on the back of the neck issues I've seen have come from #3 above. Many posts are just not complete and succinct in their thought and others fill in the blank utilizing #3 and then go straight to abusing #2 and forget to do #4.

I love this place, the openess and willingness of the participants and the circumnambulation that ensues. No need to back off due to disagreements, just continue the exploration...it seems we are often just a few posts away from finding if not common ground, an acceptable understanding of each others belief...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Hi Q,

I don't expect you to leave me alone, nor do I even want that. What I would like, however, is to not feel disrespected when I read your posts. I can work on this from my end to an extent, but I have to tell you that I am having a hard time with it. Because of that, I'd like to ask you to be a bit more open in our discussions. When you type things like, "Nope. I'm right on this one," that does make me feel disresprected and marginalized. It's like you just told me your side of it, then turned your back on me and walked away. Not a nice feeling...

...One important question that arises then, for me, is: do we want only those that can fit into the cookie mold to survive, or do want to have a vibrant, diverse community of bricks, sh!t, people, wolves, ladybugs, creeper vines, and purple cacti?

I'm sure you can guess my answer.

Respectfully,
P

Agreed, and I guess it works both ways. When I am told outright, or my thoughts are inferred as in error, or stupid, or quaint, or outdated, my hackles rise as well.

Sometimes, I don't rattle my sabre, I just draw it and thrust (something I always have to watch out for and work on). Unlike others who could care less about one, my concept of "messiah" usually keeps me in check.

Personally, it doesn't matter if one other than me accepts a messiah or not. They express their thoughts and I express mine. I do not care however, to be looked down the nose at. That really bothers, me...

So I suppose we are of similar cut of cloth in that regard (you and me).

Hand is extended, other hand is akimbo and visible at the side, let's shake and be done with the tussle...

v/r

Q

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Agreed, and I guess it works both ways. When I am told outright, or my thoughts are inferred as in error, or stupid, or quaint, or outdated, my hackles rise as well.

Sometimes, I don't rattle my sabre, I just draw it and thrust (something I always have to watch out for and work on). Unlike others who could care less about one, my concept of "messiah" usually keeps me in check.

Personally, it doesn't matter if one other than me accepts a messiah or not. They express their thoughts and I express mine. I do not care however, to be looked down the nose at. That really bothers, me...

So I suppose we are of similar cut of cloth in that regard (you and me).

Hand is extended, other hand is akimbo and visible at the side, let's shake and be done with the tussle...

v/r

Q

Deal.

::flipping through dictionary to find out what 'akimbo' means::

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Deal.

::flipping through dictionary to find out what 'akimbo' means::

I dunno but it rhymes with Tikki Tikki Timbo, which I think is a story about a kid & a well, and much fun because of the ridiculously long name ... (now I'm going to have write a poem )

andrew

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Pathless

To clear up my perspective on the idea of the "moral compass":

Personally, I don't believe that people are inherently corrupt, but I do agree that we can lose our way if we do not put the proper introspective effort into our lives. And I would also agree that it is exceedingly easy to lose our way very quickly in these modern times of the quick fix, instant gratification, constant titilation of all sorts, and--yes--debased morals.

I would say that the idea of a messiah, whether external or internal, is a tool that we can use to align our moral compass, but it is by no means mandatory.

Hi, Pathless. I agree that the messiah serves as an example and a warning about our moral compass. The messiah is an in-your-face example of our relationships with God and with each other. What did we do to Jesus? We killed an innocent person, instead of showing mercy. What was his message? To love God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself. By looking at mankind's history on how we've treated others, it's not surprising that we killed Jesus. His message that we have to change ourselves, that we are the problem, can be difficult to accept. It's much easier to blame someone else for our problems. {Gee, didn't we do that to Jesus, as well?} We may learn all about God's will and spirituality, and we may learn all sorts of knowledge/wisdom about the natural world, but we just don't what to learn about ourselves, and deal with our own faults. Without knowing ourselves, all the knowledge in the world won't help us progress, IMHO.

Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 1:18-25

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:


“ I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.