Messiah--what are your thoughts?

[Pathless]

Hi All,

In just about every spritual tradition, there is the concept of a messiah who is a perfected being. Perhaps they came in the past or are to come in the future, or perhaps both. Christianity has Jesus; Hinduism has Krishna, Shiva, and others; Buddhism has Maitreya (to come in the future) and also the more familiar Buddha of history; Islam has Mohammed; etc.

I wonder what people's thoughts are about the value of a messiah for our individual spiritual development. My gut reaction at this point in my life is that it is somewhat limiting, and inherently ties us to an inferiority complex and tradition-specific dogmas.

I say it ties us to an inferiority complex because the idea of a perfected messiah seems to contradict or at least minimize the possibilities of our own inherent divinity--and this is something that I believe strongly in. That is, I believe that it is our birthright and responsibility as humans to strive towards spiritual perfection or perfection of divinity. I feel that it becomes very difficult for us to realize our own spiritual potency if we are always living in the shadow of a messiah who possesses unique powers of spiritual perfection.

Now there is an alternate view of messiah that can be used as a tool in any tradition. This perspective requires the internalizing and I would also say abstraction of the divinity of a messiah. In this way of practicing, one would see the light of Christ, Buddha, Mohammed, Krishna, etc within. This is not to be confused with the externalized salvation of some Christians, who decree that a person is saved once they invite Christ in. What I am trying to get at here could more accurately be described as inviting Christ out, or letting Christ out, of oneself--thereby allowing the inherent divinity within to shine forth into the world. The fundemental distinction I am trying to make is that there is no separation between human and divine--or at least no more than our veils of ignorance, fear, or sin, if you will. And something that I find problematic about messiahs and saviors is that some people end up using them as spiritual crutches, or excuses for not striving to live a spiritual life, or even as a justification for being an inherently flawed being--thereby keeping themselves (and others) in darkness.

Those are my thoughts on the subject. What are yours?

[I, Brian]

It's an interesting phenomenon, not least because it seems transcultural, existing regardless of type of faith.

It's tempting to see the Messiah concept it as a reflection of the notion of harking back to a "Golden Age" which is pretty prevalent in a lot of ancient literature.

Possibly it follows the general observation that society today is always in a worse state than it was yesterday.

Therefore to set things right, a figure imbued with the original qualities must return and set everything back on the right path.

The funny thing about Messiah's is that they have a habit of never turning up - though some groups will claim a Messianic figure at their founding, the irony is that this creates a need for a new Messianic figure.

Overall, it provides the impression that "waiting" for a Messiah is a spiritual distraction, and that it is a concept best thought of as metaphorical at best.

I appreciate not many people will necessarily share this view - simply my 2c.

[taijasi]

I couldn't agree more with what's just been said by the both of you. There are many pros and cons of belief in a Messiah-figure, but it's been my own finding that the effects upon various individuals are often almost crippling - in a spiritual sense, and to the extreme - or otherwise quite redemptive, especially on the part of those who have been able to internalize their understanding of what a Messiah is all about. The whole, "Greater things than this, ye shall do," and "Do this, in Remembrance of me," is what has always appealed to me.

Thus, speaking in terms of Buddha-nature, or in terms of the Christ within, of mystical & Pauline Christianity, we can take to heart what has been presented by these great Teachers, and our understanding of them as Saviors takes on a personal dimension, a depth which I find lacking in any belief system which places emphasis on a distinction between self and Savior. So long as I must continue to look outside, I will never fully believe in, let alone realize, my own potential. But the moment I believe I can, then I find strength. And this is (proof of, acknowledgement of) the Christ Immanent, or our true, inherent Buddha nature, the Atma-Buddhi-Manas of esotericists, which has an equivalent in every tradition.

By the way, part of the reason I find it more helpful to honor the Great Ones such as the Christ, and the Buddha, as Teachers (`World Teachers'), is because of the meaning of education. In reaffirming your point, Pathless, let's recall that educare means `to draw out,' and not, to hammer in. The best teachers are the ones who recognize that learning - is essentially a form of recall, or of bringing to the surface an understanding, by helping us to grow from within, and not by simply filling our heads full of facts. Sadly, many teachers, from grade school on up to post-graduate level, do not seem to grasp this ... and miss the whole point.

I am convinced that religion, and many clergymen, make the same mistake, being too focused on the binding back of the soul to God. Certainly this is one aspect of treading the spiritual path, and coming to know God, but what about God Immanent, what about the still, small voice that speaks to us within the Heart? This is where we can find the Messiah, in any day or age, whether or not there is an external figure currently walking the land.

andrew

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

It's an interesting phenomenon, not least because it seems transcultural, existing regardless of type of faith.

It's tempting to see the Messiah concept it as a reflection of the notion of harking back to a "Golden Age" which is pretty prevalent in a lot of ancient literature.

Possibly it follows the general observation that society today is always in a worse state than it was yesterday.

Therefore to set things right, a figure imbued with the original qualities must return and set everything back on the right path.

The funny thing about Messiah's is that they have a habit of never turning up - though some groups will claim a Messianic figure at their founding, the irony is that this creates a need for a new Messianic figure.

Overall, it provides the impression that "waiting" for a Messiah is a spiritual distraction, and that it is a concept best thought of as metaphorical at best.

I appreciate not many people will necessarily share this view - simply my 2c.

The concept of a messiah is simply that man, will if believing upon such, conduct self in more or less a manner that is in good keepings with the concept of the Messiah's expectations, thus society remains civil and relatively good. Once that concept of "savior" is lost, man has no reason to maintain a civil nature, and eventually society will crash.

Like the 60s song "is that all there is...then let's keep dancing", is very true in human nature. We can not survive without a mediator. Our societies have not been designed as such.

Look, every society that has removed God from it (especially self made man-god), has failed...every one. And they fall into anarchy, and start again (with God at the forefront).

I'm sorry, but the fact is godless man is unfocussed, and has no direction. No savior, no reason to live righteously, no reason to have morales. No reason to protect children, nor teach them good ways of living (because there is nothing good...all is relative), do you see the danger of this way of thinking? Something, you have got to stand for something. You have got to teach those that will take our place, something. Or else they will be the last generation of man...

that is fact.

v/r

Q

[Pathless]

Hi Quahom,

I feel that I need to point out that the whole basis for your argument is based on the idea that man is inherently flawed and/or corrupt. Not everyone believes this way, however. Certainly that is how you see it, as evidenced through your post here.

I do agree wtih you in your underlying assertion that man needs a moral compass. Where the fundemental difference in our methods of thinking arises is that while you tend to believe (and correct me if I am wrong) that man is inherently falliable and flawed--and therefore needs the divine intervention of an external God to correct and save him--I believe that humanity (man and woman) is innately endowed with qualities of benevolence and goodwill, and simply needs to tune into a divine nature within in order to live peaceably on the Earth.

Respectfully,
P

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Hi Quahom,

I feel that I need to point out that the whole basis for your argument is based on the idea that man is inherently flawed and/or corrupt. Not everyone believes this way, however. Certainly that is how you see it, as evidenced through your post here.

I do agree wtih you in your underlying assertion that man needs a moral compass. Where the fundemental difference in our methods of thinking arises is that while you tend to believe (and correct me if I am wrong) that man is inherently falliable and flawed--and therefore needs the divine intervention of an external God to correct and save him--I believe that humanity (man and woman) is innately endowed with qualities of benevolence and goodwill, and simply needs to tune into a divine nature within in order to live peaceably on the Earth.

Respectfully,
P

I think (whooo boy here goes) man has a compass. And man has been taught to use that compass. And man understands the difference between magnetic north and true north, and can compensate for it. But man, sometimes, deliberately (or innocently) deviates from that North trajectory, and can't explain why, then continues on, and deviates again, and again, to the point were he has no idea where he is at, but keeps going on...

North becomes South, East becomes West, Good becomes Bad...and that is when we need a "scout master" to point us north again.

As far as the innate goodness of man? Are you married? Or have a partner that you call significant? Never fought? Or if you did, ever say harsh things or hear harsh things from your most significant other? What was so good about that?

The closest human in your life speaks harshness about you...in anger.

nope. I'm right on this part.

v/r

Q

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Q

As far as the innate goodness of man? Are you married? Or have a partner that you call significant?

Yes, I do. She's great, thanks for asking.

Originally Posted by Q

Never fought? Or if you did, ever say harsh things or hear harsh things from your most significant other? What was so good about that?

Of course we have disagreements. As a matter of fact, we did yesterday. But guess what? We talked it out. Tears were shed--by me, not her. We listened to each other and heard what needed to be said, and we were able to see each other's perspectives. Though different, we recognized the each perspective was valid and real.

That was yesterday afternoon. Last night, we went out on the greatest date we've had in a while. And when we went to sleep together, we affirmed our love for each other, and agreed that it had been strengthened through our disagreement and subsequent discussion.

That's how humans are.

Originally Posted by Q

nope. I'm right on this part.

This is why you and I have such difficulty discussing things...

[Quahom1]

This is why you and I have such difficulty discussing things...

Then I will leave you alone, and to your bliss.

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I'm sorry, but the fact is godless man is unfocussed, and has no direction. No savior, no reason to live righteously, no reason to have morales. No reason to protect children, nor teach them good ways of living (because there is nothing good...all is relative), do you see the danger of this way of thinking? Something, you have got to stand for something. You have got to teach those that will take our place, something. Or else they will be the last generation of man...

I agree with much of what you've said, Q, in both posts ... but I disagree that even the concept of God, as presented by any form of Christianity, is really necessary for direction, reason to live righteously, reason to have morals, reason to protect children, and reason to teach children morarlity. Agreed, that we cannot go through life without a compass, but that compass can take many forms. Let's just think for a minute, about the presumed lack of all of these plusses you're talking about ... in say, Buddhist communities, cultures, and countries.

Exactly. It doesn't exist (the lack, that is). In fact, if you'll think for a second, you'll see that it's just the reverse, as another musician from the 60s put it (albeit in a 70s tune):

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

And he also sang about the Brotherhood of Man ...

Not just a dreamer, but a man of action. And so was George, though he was a Vaishnava ... although it's quite possible that George believed in Kalki Avatara, I dunno.

But the point is, and I'm not suggesting everyone suddenly abandon belief in a Messiah-figure - - the point is that even without God, Buddhist (and other) societies somehow manage. The Buddhists, in fact, don't generally engage in holy wars, witch hunts, Inquisitions, and other forms of persecution that we in the West have carried on & carried out all in the name of God! What happened to all that - morality, you're talking about?

Do I think the whole world should be Buddhistic? No. It's really a moot point. Should people abandon faith in God? No. Does belief in a Messiah serve a purpose, and are the rest of your points valid and well-made? Yes. But is it necessary? Not really. Not if one has enough hope already, and believes in Human nature as inherently good, as Pathless points out. I tend to believe in both, but with the caveats from my earlier post. The bottom line is, you might not want - to try and live life without belief in a Messiah, but it does no good to suggest one must share that belief in order to have purpose, meaning, morality, a raison d'etre, and a desire to pass the torch on - to one's children, etc. It's not worth arguing. Just look around!

Anyway, if the Messiah isn't already here (and in most ways, I'm convinced He is), then by 2025, I would expect that to change. It just won't be - quite what some people expect. Of course, we'll just have to wait & see!

cheers,

andrew

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Where the fundemental difference in our methods of thinking arises is that while you tend to believe (and correct me if I am wrong) that man is inherently falliable and flawed--and therefore needs the divine intervention of an external God to correct and save him--I believe that humanity (man and woman) is innately endowed with qualities of benevolence and goodwill, and simply needs to tune into a divine nature within in order to live peaceably on the Earth.

Respectfully,
P

I suppose I combine the two perspectives. Humanity is inherently fallible, and also inherently carrying the divine light within. God is in all things and beyond all things. By looking to God beyond all things, we are able to see God in all things, including ourselves, awakening our own divine light (the Spirit within us) and beginning a path that is based on desiring peace, love, and the will of God rather than self-centeredness and fear. Only the intervention of God saves us- because God intervened from the time of our creation to give us that divine light within us and our deep-seated desire to seek after the Divine. In doing so, we awaken ever more and unify ourselves with God, which helps us to live peacefully with other beings. But it is our choice, and we certainly can choose self-centeredness over God-centeredness, choosing the ego and its fears, desires, and attachments over the divine light within us, which would lead us to humility, love, and peace. People do it all the time. I try hard, and I still mess it up. Some people don't even try. So while I agree that there is a divine spark within us (and I believe all beings), that does not mean that we do not need God.

For me, I envision a ship sailing toward the harbor, which is my home. I have some good ideas about how to get there. I have every intention of getting there. I have a good innate sense of direction, an intellect that understands navigation, and some tools that help me on my journey. But in darkness and stormy times, Christ's/God's light shines from the lighthouse, reaching out to the faltering lights on my ship, giving me hope and clear direction, and allowing me to fully utilize the "compass" (as Q puts it) within.

Just my two cents.

[Bandit]

i had no idea people feel my beliefs are not necessary. a real eye opener.
i am just thrilled how messiahless people view those with a messiah as a distraction, crippled & on crutches.

i am not so full of pride that i cant see the source of where my help comes from. neither am i so above others that i am already perfect as they claim to be.
just because messiahless people think they are a cut above people with a Messiah does not make it so.

in the stead of other Christians around here (& those with different Messiah beliefs) & coming from a site that preaches equality of all beliefs, i would appreciate my beliefs in Jesus my Messiah not being classified as a blind mans wheel chair, prepared for death bed extermination.

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Bandit

i had no idea people feel my beliefs are not necessary. a real eye opener.
i am just thrilled how messiahless people view those with a messiah as a distraction, crippled & on crutches.

i am not so full of pride that i cant see the source of where my help comes from. neither am i so above others that i am already perfect as they claim to be.
just because messiahless people think they are a cut above people with a Messiah does not make it so.

in the stead of other Christians around here (& those with different Messiah beliefs) & coming from a site that preaches equality of all beliefs, i would appreciate my beliefs in Jesus my Messiah not being classified as a blind mans wheel chair, prepared for death bed extermination.

Bandit,

You might find this site helpful.

Here's what you'll find on the site, in terms of statistics for adherents to the top 22 world religions (by #):

1. Christianity: 2.1 billion
2. Islam: 1.3 billion
3. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
4. Hinduism: 900 million
5. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
6. Buddhism: 376 million
7. primal-indigenous: 300 million
8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
9. Sikhism: 23 million
10. Juche: 19 million
11. Spiritism: 15 million
12. Judaism: 14 million
13. Baha'i: 7 million
14. Jainism: 4.2 million
15. Shinto: 4 million
16. Cao Dai: 4 million
17. Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
18. Tenrikyo: 2 million
19. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
20. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
21. Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
22. Scientology: 500 thousand

I'll assume these figures may not be perfect, but let's just say they're close enough to make my point. In five years, the numbers won't have changed enough to invalidate it.

Let's see ... 2.1 billion Christians, and for the benefit of the doubt, let's say all of them accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah, and profess such a belief. Okay, not let's tally the rest:

According to the site, 4,567,700,000 or so people are not Christians, unless you count the 800 thousand Unitarian Universalists. But last time I checked, most of them don't quite see Jesus Christ the way you do, and the way most Christians do.

These numbers are almost certainly off, but they're close enough for me to say, face it, you're outnumbered two to one, by people in this world who do not believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Perhaps we should take a look at what each of the above 20 listed religions, or worldviews, has to say about a Messiah-figure. I think you'll find that many of them, do acknowledge such, and look for the Coming One at some point in the future, whether immediate, soon, or perhaps hundreds of years from now.

But just because we don't all see it your way, big deal? So what? Would it be better if all 6.6 billion people on the planet did? I'm not so sure. No one's knockin' your beliefs. You don't have to feel offended just because 2 out of every 3 people you meet don't believe in Jesus Christ and all that. As I say, most of the religions mentioned, do actually look toward a Messiah-figure of one sort or another.

WHY do you feel so personally offended? I don't think anyone has said the slightest thing in an offensive spirit. The very point of this thread is to discuss the role, the meaning, the purpose, and the influence of the notion of a Messiah in our spiritual lives. I think you have put a lot of words in other people's mouths. You've projected ... and I think it might be more helpful if you would engage folks on common ground. If you think the idea of a Messiah is important, and you feel that a certain conception is more useful than others, then please say so. Why lash out?

Respectfully,

andrew

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by taijasi

I agree with much of what you've said, Q, in both posts ... but I disagree that even the concept of God, as presented by any form of Christianity, is really necessary for direction, reason to live righteously, reason to have morals, reason to protect children, and reason to teach children morarlity. Agreed, that we cannot go through life without a compass, but that compass can take many forms. Let's just think for a minute, about the presumed lack of all of these plusses you're talking about ... in say, Buddhist communities, cultures, and countries.


Exactly. It doesn't exist (the lack, that is). In fact, if you'll think for a second, you'll see that it's just the reverse, as another musician from the 60s put it (albeit in a 70s tune):

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

And he also sang about the Brotherhood of Man ...

Not just a dreamer, but a man of action. And so was George, though he was a Vaishnava ... although it's quite possible that George believed in Kalki Avatara, I dunno.

But the point is, and I'm not suggesting everyone suddenly abandon belief in a Messiah-figure - - the point is that even without God, Buddhist (and other) societies somehow manage. The Buddhists, in fact, don't generally engage in holy wars, witch hunts, Inquisitions, and other forms of persecution that we in the West have carried on & carried out all in the name of God! What happened to all that - morality, you're talking about?

Do I think the whole world should be Buddhistic? No. It's really a moot point. Should people abandon faith in God? No. Does belief in a Messiah serve a purpose, and are the rest of your points valid and well-made? Yes. But is it necessary? Not really. Not if one has enough hope already, and believes in Human nature as inherently good, as Pathless points out. I tend to believe in both, but with the caveats from my earlier post. The bottom line is, you might not want - to try and live life without belief in a Messiah, but it does no good to suggest one must share that belief in order to have purpose, meaning, morality, a raison d'etre, and a desire to pass the torch on - to one's children, etc. It's not worth arguing. Just look around!

Anyway, if the Messiah isn't already here (and in most ways, I'm convinced He is), then by 2025, I would expect that to change. It just won't be - quite what some people expect. Of course, we'll just have to wait & see!

cheers,

andrew

Except, I never mentioned "Christianity" persee, not once...

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Except, I never mentioned "Christianity" persee, not once...

Lol ... no. But it's you, Q. Did you need to?

You did say savior, but of course, savior - one way or another - is certainly present in bunches of other traditions.

I guess I just like to think that a pure Humanist, through and through, can demonstrate Human Goodness every bit as well as a religious person, even without faith in any sort of messiah. And same with the Buddhists who don't happen to believe in Maitreya - although that's way off in the future anyway!

Yes, I think it's only natural that a Christian might wince a little at the notion that a belief in Jesus Christ is superfluous. But I don't think that's quite the point. The point is just that there are different ways of conceiving of the Messiah, and/or different ways of allowing one's faith in such - or lack thereof - to inform one's life (morals, goals, actions, relationships with others, etc.). I think belief in a Messiah is 100% compatible with a belief in myself! Frankly, if I can't do the "greater things than this," and "be perfect, even as my Father in Heaven is perfect" ... then the words of the Messiah, are meaningless. (But I do believe what he said, exactly as he said it!)

my angle on it,

andrew

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Lol ... no. But it's you, Q. Did you need to?

You did say savior, but of course, savior - one way or another - is certainly present in bunches of other traditions.

I guess I just like to think that a pure Humanist, through and through, can demonstrate Human Goodness every bit as well as a religious person, even without faith in any sort of messiah. And same with the Buddhists who don't happen to believe in Maitreya - although that's way off in the future anyway!

Yes, I think it's only natural that a Christian might wince a little at the notion that a belief in Jesus Christ is superfluous. But I don't think that's quite the point. The point is just that there are different ways of conceiving of the Messiah, and/or different ways of allowing one's faith in such - or lack thereof - to inform one's life (morals, goals, actions, relationships with others, etc.). I think belief in a Messiah is 100% compatible with a belief in myself! Frankly, if I can't do the "greater things than this," and "be perfect, even as my Father in Heaven is perfect" ... then the words of the Messiah, are meaningless. (But I do believe what he said, exactly as he said it!)

my angle on it,

andrew

Well thank you Taij. That is the first time I've ever been "convicted" of my "faith" without even mentioning it.

There are humanists that I admire as well (surprised?), and like Ghandi said "I might become one, if I could find one." Of course Mahatma was referring to Christianity but you get the picture.

We've had a long time to become self made, and so far the results aren't so good. Maybe thats why we need a guide...

my thoughts

v/r

Q

p.s. Gene Roddenberry...