Miracles, THE ULTIMATE CHALLENGE

[Mohsin]

Brian, the verse about sun not able to catch up with the moon is true. I mean, there is no error in it. Concider the other verse:
“It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.” [Al-Qur’an 21:33]
It is also mentioned in the Qur'an in the following verse:
"By the sky full of paths and orbits."[Al-Qur'an 51:7]
This clearly states that all the celestial bodies are moving, i.e revolving and rotating. The purpoce of this post was to prove to people that Islam is not just a blind religion and also that Qur'an is compatible with modren day science. Surely, we do not just believe because of these compatabilities, I mean Qur'an was revealed about 1400 years ago, but this kind of compatability has impressed many people and as a result, Islam is spreading very quickly. Qur'an is not a book of science, it is a book of signs(Ayats/verses). There are about a thousand verses regarding science, not one failing or showing incompatibility. This is true for,well, only Qur'an as no other religion has been able to pass this test.

Just tell me when you think that I should post the next series of miracles.

[suanni]

Isn't it true that it is classified as a miracle if it cannot be explained in scientific terms as yet? As science increases its knowledge less will be miraculous. We have yet to determine exactly what the brain does.

Agree Brian, life is a miracle and that in itself is enough

[arielmessenger]

Would any of us use 7th century technological knowledge to fix our computer?

Islamic idolization of the Quran doesn't do Muslims any good when they have to fix their computers. And really, all that business of "between back and ribs" reminds me of something in Jewish mythology about the soul or something coming out of the spine, I can't remember exactly. I seriously doubt Mohammad's Quran can be used as a guide to safe medical practice.

The way Muslims idolize Mohammad and the Quran as infallible also reminds of how Christian fundies try their best to find any little scrap of evidence that "proves beyond doubt" that the Bible stories are all 100%true when in fact no reputable historian or archeologist teaching in at any university level today will dare make such claims when every year more Bible myths continue to be exposed as such.

Word Idolatry is not a spiritual path. It is idolization of words written by men, fallible human beings for people afraid to think for themselves. If one needs another in order to think about God correctly what does this tell us about God? That God is not open to anyone but the special elite person or persons who alone can dictate what God is, what God wants, and how God want everyone to live. I'm sorry but this isn't my God who seems to be able to reach just about anyone under the sun or moon who seriously looks for It. We don't need to make idols of men or books in order to reach God all by ourselves. We don't idolize scientists and yet they have saved far more lives than Moses, Jesus, or Mohammad put together. This is exactly the way we should treat those who would speak for God. Put their evidence to the test instead of enshrining them in religious mystique and unquestioned authority.

[Mohsin]

Who is telling you to go back to the seventh century. The purpose of this thread is to tell the people that Islam is not a blind religion. It's evidances are comming up to the people the more they research the Qur'an. Do you think that it is the doctor who responsible for saving life. I mean if that was the case then people would never have died until they are infected or suffering from any disease that is unknow or uncureble. It is because of the advancement of science that we are able to know about the diseases and are curing them to improve the quality of life. You are again missing out the fact that Islam tells you do to be practical. Muslims of the 12th century also followed Islam. Just so you know, they were very good in the field of anatomy and biology. Do you know about the black plauge which was there during the dark ages of Europe. Spain was under Muslim rule back then and there were deaths in Spain due to the plauge as well. Surprisengly, not much Muslims were infected. Do you know why? It was due to wazoo, a small method by which we clean/wash ourself before prayer. The dark age Europians were not good in hygine at all and the germs were not washed off and thus death toll there reached a very high level.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by arielmessenger

Would any of us use 7th century technological knowledge to fix our computer?

What has that question got to do with anything?

I am sat in a building composed of brick - a resource used for at least 6,000 years. Are buildings made of brick therefore of no worth now? Perhaps I should live only in a building made of concrete, glass, or steel? Ah, but the Romans learned to industrialise those processes in the 1st century AD. So are these things are also therefore of no worth now?

[samabudhi]

If you read the post about astronomy, the answer was there about moon as a reflecting light.

Nope. I don't see it.
All I see is a quote which tells me that when the Qu'ran talks about the light of the moon, it is refering to it's beauty and not to the literal meaning of light as you'd have us all believe.

“It is He who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty).” [Al-Qur’an 10:5]

Can you point out any other religious book which shows such great compatanility with modren day science.

Buddhist Abhidharma.

Originally Posted by Mohsin

Just tell me when you think that I should post the next series of miracles.

When I get to see one.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,


Salaam Moshin,

let me ask you... if a miracle is a measure of truth... what of the miracles of the various other religious traditions? are those all discounted? if so, on what basis?

[arielmessenger]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

What has that question got to do with anything?

I am sat in a building composed of brick - a resource used for at least 6,000 years. Are buildings made of brick therefore of no worth now? Perhaps I should live only in a building made of concrete, glass, or steel? Ah, but the Romans learned to industrialise those processes in the 1st century AD. So are these things are also therefore of no worth now?

I am making a point that Muslims glorifying past Muslim science doesn't do modern Muslims any good when faced with modern medical problems which require exacting modern medical science, nearly all of which has been developed in spite of religious obstruction, e.g. the Enlightenment vs. the RCC and in our times modern knowledge vs. traditional Islamic instructions that is used to block Western science knowledge as well as Western culture. If the West has developed a better building it won't be recognized by people who claim the old brick buildings are good enough even though they are caving in during earthquakes and killing people who could otherwise be protected.

[Mohsin]

Originally Posted by samabudhi

Nope. I don't see it.
All I see is a quote which tells me that when the Qu'ran talks about the light of the moon, it is refering to it's beauty and not to the literal meaning of light as you'd have us all believe.

Can you, by any manner, prove to me that the Arabic word noor does not mean reflected light? If you cannot, do not pass such arguments.

Now, some people have got a feeling that I am only accepting Qur'an as a word of God. It is a fundamental belief for a Muslim to believe in all the Prophets and the books that were revealed on them. Also, there would be no Prophet after Muhammad(P.B.U.H). Now, by name we can only point out twenty five of the prophets and four scriptures as their names are present in the Qur'an. Also, it is said in Islam that there were prophets/messangers sent to every nation, but they were for their people and for that time only and Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) will be a Prophet for the entire world. The number given is about 1,24,000. Now if by my posts I have doubted in devine involvement/nature of any religious scripture, I appologize for my mistake. I accept that I have said about contradictions in the Bible, but these are not from God, but due to human intervention/involvement. The prophecies of the Bible are also very much proven to be true. I accept that the challenge I gave can be true for other religions aswell, but now I will only point out the several reasons that why Qur'an is concidered miracles and following which, people are entering into Islam. The evidance of this can be seen from the links that I gave. Please note that it is not the only reason why we believe in Islam, but they are reasons strong enough to convince many people.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by arielmessenger

I am making a point that Muslims glorifying past Muslim science doesn't do modern Muslims any good when faced with modern medical problems which require exacting modern medical science, nearly all of which has been developed in spite of religious obstruction, e.g. the Enlightenment vs. the RCC and in our times modern knowledge vs. traditional Islamic instructions that is used to block Western science knowledge as well as Western culture. If the West has developed a better building it won't be recognized by people who claim the old brick buildings are good enough even though they are caving in during earthquakes and killing people who could otherwise be protected.

Firstly, do you consider calling someone "dense" to be typical of your manners?

Secondly, I do not believe the argument that Mohsin makes is that we should fall back on science as it was represented in the 7th century. Mohsin's argument is that the Qur'an is particularly advanced on the scientific level for the time of its writing.

Whether someone accepts the logic of that argument is one matter - but bear in mind what the actual argument is, please, when discussing it.

Also note that obstruction of scientific development by the RCC - particularly with reference to the inquisition - was principly due to political reasons - ie, maintaining a certain central control of Europe - which was essentially the main political task of the Papacy across the Middle Ages to Renaissance. Read a little history of Europe in the Mediaeval Period and you'll see that - else read Machiavelli's "The Prince" and realise he was merely stating the obvious political realities of the time, rather than inventing them.

I would also invite you to state which specific religious instructions from the Quran - even the Hadith - specifically speak against learning, education, and the accumulation of knowledge.

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by arielmessenger

The way Muslims idolize Mohammad and the Quran as infallible also reminds of how Christian fundies try their best to find any little scrap of evidence that "proves beyond doubt" that the Bible stories are all 100%true when in fact no reputable historian or archeologist teaching in at any university level today will dare make such claims when every year more Bible myths continue to be exposed as such.

Word Idolatry is not a spiritual path. It is idolization of words written by men, fallible human beings for people afraid to think for themselves. If one needs another in order to think about God correctly what does this tell us about God? That God is not open to anyone but the special elite person or persons who alone can dictate what God is, what God wants, and how God want everyone to live. I'm sorry but this isn't my God who seems to be able to reach just about anyone under the sun or moon who seriously looks for It. We don't need to make idols of men or books in order to reach God all by ourselves. We don't idolize scientists and yet they have saved far more lives than Moses, Jesus, or Mohammad put together. This is exactly the way we should treat those who would speak for God. Put their evidence to the test instead of enshrining them in religious mystique and unquestioned authority.

I AGREE.

If the medieval practices and the medieval beliefs of Christianity, Judaism and Islam that are based on superstitions were eliminated, then we could start building a rational and logical belief system that is based on truth and an understanding of spirituality. This is the value of truthfulness and rationality.
Truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be substantiated by science or those that can not be proven to be wrong. Spiritual interaction is only possible between spirits. Claims of supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not truths. In this 21st Century, the Age of Technology, we are still plagued by religious beliefs that may be a contributing cause of terrorism, killings and wars between nations. Belief in a God who causes catastrophes, punishes people and who created the universe out of nothing as if by magic was brought about by hysteria and superstition. This thought process needs to be reassessed and brought up to date. Open-minded people must use common sense to determine whether this God was incorrectly perceived, misinterpreted and misunderstood by the masses of a bygone era.

Perception plays a major role in religions. There are numerous interpretations of the Scriptures, hence there are various sects who use the same source, the Bible or the Qur'an, but come to different conclusions. Religious differences are acceptable by the majority as long as fanaticism does not cause physical confrontations. The ironic fact is that the followers of these religions all claim to live by the Word of God. Many claim that God has personally talked to their messengers who have relayed these Words of God to others. Apparently the Words of God were either misinterpreted, God is contradicting himself, or we start all over again by each side claiming to live by and having heard the Word of God correctly. When establishing an association with the present day problems between Jews, Christians and Muslims, we can come up with numerous answers, however if there were no distinctions between Muslims, Jews, and Christians, strife would be nonexistent. The major distinction is religion. When peoples' concept of God is flawed, corrections, truth, logic and common sense thereof must eventually prevail. Human fallibility and misconceptions have labeled God for past millennia as one who interferes with the natural forces and free will of people by threatening punishment to those who disobey his bidding. The God of our ancestors had to be humanized in order to have the masses adapt the thought processes to that time period. God does not change with the times but our perception of who God is should change as societies eliminate their superstitious beliefs. God, the Ultimate Spirit consists of Supreme Purity, Pure Intelligence, Pure Logic, etc., is not encumbered by human attributes and has no needs, or a desire to be worshiped, prayed to, exalted, venerated, deified, or anything else that we have to offer.

God is a God for ALL & too large to fit into any one religion. As time passes and when people eventually transcend their religious prejudices they will no longer say, “I am a Jew, a Muslim, a Christian”; then they will say “I am a Jewish Transcendentalist, a Muslim Transcendentalist, a Christian Transcendentalist”; and thereafter they will say “I am a Transcendentalist”.

Namaste,
Kurt

[cmptechie]

Originally Posted by arielmessenger

The way Muslims idolize Mohammad and the Quran as infallible also reminds of how Christian fundies try their best to find any little scrap of evidence that "proves beyond doubt" that the Bible stories are all 100%true when in fact no reputable historian or archeologist teaching in at any university level today will dare make such claims when every year more Bible myths continue to be exposed as such.

.

Just a side note, in reality, in the Middle East, the Bible is used extensively as a tool to find cities named in the Bible. In every case the Bible has proved accurate.


Previously I had a post about contradictions in the Qu'ran, and Mohsin was not able to access the site, I just checked it a few minutes ago, and it was working. If there weren't dozens of them, I would type in the contradictions here, but that would quite probably take me several days.

[samabudhi]

Originally Posted by cmptechie

Just a side note, in reality, in the Middle East, the Bible is used extensively as a tool to find cities named in the Bible. In every case the Bible has proved accurate.

The Bible is not the sole product of someone's imagination. Neither are sea dragons, nor UFOs. There is a perfectly acceptable explanation for each.
The Bible started off as a collection of folk stories and bonified historical evidence which was put together and distorted into it's present form.
When scientists try to disprove Bible stories, they look into history and see events which did take place, but which were perfectly explainable by modern science. The Great Flood for instance was proven to be the flooding of the Black Sea. The plagues in Egypt too, were proven, and traced back to freak weather.

If the Bible was in fact all lies, it would never have got off the ground.
A lie will only exist if there are truthes supporting it.

What people who want the Bible to be true will say is, 'Look here. A truth! Therefore the whole Bible must be true!'
What people who want the Bible to be false will say is, 'Look here. A lie! Therefore the whole Bible must be a lie!'
How naive.

[Mohsin]

Originally Posted by cmptechie

Just a side note, in reality, in the Middle East, the Bible is used extensively as a tool to find cities named in the Bible. In every case the Bible has proved accurate.

As I said earlier, Muslims have firm belief that an original Bible did came from God. We are not doubting that, but still, there are contradictions in the Modren Bible and are due to human involvement.

Originally Posted by cmptechie

Previously I had a post about contradictions in the Qu'ran, and Mohsin was not able to access the site, I just checked it a few minutes ago, and it was working. If there weren't dozens of them, I would type in the contradictions here, but that would quite probably take me several days.

As many as they are pointed out, they have been publically clerified. Just so you know, there were around 60,000 books written against Islam in a span of 150 years. Do you think that the points on such sites were not placed forward. There are Muslim scholors who have publically clerified the contradictions. If they would not have, I would not have placed this claim. As I said about places where there are diehard critics of Islam and the Qur'an, there have been people writting about all and any contradictions they can find. Again they are always monitered by Muslim scholors and clerified. As a case came out between me and Samabudhi in the thread about Misconceptions, all the contradictions are due to mistranslations, misqoutations and false assumptions.

[samabudhi]

Originally Posted by Mohsin

As a case came out between me and Samabudhi in the thread about Misconceptions, all the contradictions are due to mistranslations, misqoutations and false assumptions.

Excuse me!!!, but I don't recall ever coming to a conclusion about that thread. I must say I'm rather taken aback, stepping on me to hold your argument in this thread. I found your metaphor of constructing a building to be wholly inadequate. We were not arguing the possibility of simultaneous 'construction' but rather the wording which is used in the Qu'ran.

If God/Muhammed (your choice) had intended to make clear that they were built simultaneously, he would have worded it like this:
'It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; {summa} He made the heavens into seven firmaments.'
and not like this:
'It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; {summa} He turned to the heaven and made them into seven firmaments.'

And what does this mean anyway, since we're back onto the subject: 'Also, the original contradiction has been removed, i.e. six days(periods of time) or the eight days(periods of time).' What's also?

In answering these questions, I'm sure you'll understand why I chose not to reply to you statements. The Arrrgggh factor. I may enjoy debates, but this one must be the biggest zero I've taken part in yet.