Miracles, THE ULTIMATE CHALLENGE - Page 4

Mohsin · 05-22-2004, 09:15 AM

Firstly, cmptechie I will clerify the first assumed error.
Wine is a drink that can be concidered as a refreshing or tastey drink, but the wine present on the earth contains toxicants which makes a person unconcious and is also unhealty. Thus it is ordered to not to drink it. On the other hand, the wine of the paradise will be a great delicious and refreshing drink free from intoxication. The nature of this wine of the paradise is described in the Qur'an in the following verses:
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037.045
Round will be passed to them a Cup from a clear-flowing fountain,
037.046
Crystal-white, of a taste delicious to those who drink (thereof),
037.047
Free from headiness; nor will they suffer intoxication therefrom.
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For the second point, I would prefer that you read the context as if I try explaining in detail, it would be as if I am offending other religions.
The Qur'an is telling about the followers of the Book, the Torah and the Injeel. When it say about the Jews and the Christians, it is reffering to the true believers of religious scriptures.

The previous verse to the placed one[5:69] says about it:
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[5.68] Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.
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In the same context, the Qur'an speaks about the deviations from the laws revealed by Allah(SWT) by the Christians and the Jews. The very next verses say:
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[5.70] Certainly We made a covenant with the children of Israel and We sent to them Apostles(Prophets); whenever there came to them an apostle with what that their souls did not desire, some (of them) did they call liars and some they slew.
[5.71] And they thought that there would be no affliction, so they became blind and deaf; then Allah turned to them mercifully, but many of them became blind and deaf; and Allah is well seeing what they do.
[5.72] Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.
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Still if you are in doubt, then read the verses in context. i hope that it will clerify.

If you read the verse...
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Sura 3:85
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the herafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost.
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.... in context, you will come to know that this was being refferd to the people who were deviating from Islam back into the former religions. The verse after this one says:
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Sura 3:86
How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their believing and (after) they had borne witness that the Messenger was true and clear arguments had come to them; and Allah does not guide the unjust people
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Again, I hope that you are satisfied. Please do read the context before concidering any contradiction. The site you reffered to are made by the people who only want to decieve as they themself have read the context but choose only to undermine Islam.

Mohsin · 05-22-2004, 09:34 AM

Regards kkawohl.
You should read the collection of Qur'an verses and that of Hadiths that I gave in the Khatemiyyat thread. After that, you will be cleared about the Islamic belief about Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) being the last prophet.
When I said that those believing in the false ideologies of the false prophets not being able to come into logical grounds, I mean to say that they cannot even satisfy the Islamic laws and commandments. There is another verse of the Holy Qur'an which says:
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[5:3]
.....This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion;
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After this, there remains no need for any other prophet or any other revelation. Then either these false believers claim that they are wrong or either they say that the Qur'an is wrong(God forbidding) and leave Islam.

Just I want to know what you believe in when you call all the religions totally illogical.

kkawohl · 05-22-2004, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mohsin

Just I want to know what you believe in when you call all the religions totally illogical.

Many prophets and messengers of God in the “Holy Books” claimed to have received instructions from God to convey to mankind.

In my spiritual experiences (see my signature site below) I received no instructions from God, yet it was crystal clear what my delegated task was to be. My spirit felt as if it left my body and experienced being in a place with a gathering of souls or spirits. I felt the greatest peace, tranquility and ecstasy. I felt a rapture that was beyond a person's imagination. I felt as if I was a part of ALL, a part of God. I was mentally communicating and in sync with everyone; many of the prophets of the bible, many historical people whom I had read about, many deceased acquaintances and relatives. There was no dominant force, no forceful leader. I somehow knew who everyone was. Every thought was interacted with the whole community. I had no questions; it seemed as if everything was revealed and crystal clear. I saw the universe stretched out before us like a vast expanse with spirits engaged in mental interaction like master craftsmen contemplating the creation of a new frontier.

I was shown that everything in the universe follows the universal laws which separate the physical and the spiritual existence. Energy is power, vigor, liveliness, intensity. It is a measurable quantity, without reference to its nature or source. Energy, or life is a fundamental attribute and function of the universe. Our bodies build up and harness a minute amount of spiritual energy that is transferred into the spiritual dimension upon our death. Then this spiritual energy is limitless because it lacks resistance and this energy can assimilate as a unity or be separate and individual. It is this spiritual energy that is God. It is a composition of souls, the spiritual intellect of the universe of every soul that has passed from the physical universe into the spiritual universe. It can create a spiritual existence of beauty that is beyond the imagination…my spirit has experienced it.

Please note that in the picture (see my signature site below) it shows an artist’s rendering of part of my spiritual experiences. My spirit observed the entire history and the evolution of the universe and our varying perceptions of God, as if in a fast-forward film. My spirit witnessed the beginning of physical rational life in the universe, the bonding of the first two souls that was the beginning of a spiritual unity. My spirit witnessed the development of mankind and man’s first perception of God from the story of Adam & Eve.

My spirit witnessed Abraham & Moses, their quest into spirituality, their interaction with God and the beginning of Judaism. My spirit witnessed God’s interaction with Jesus & his life and death. My spirit witnessed the beginning of Christianity & the senseless killings in the Crusades. My spirit witnessed God’s interaction with Muhammad, the beginning of the Islam faith & the Arab struggles. My spirit witnessed the senseless Twin Towers tragedy of 9-11-01.

In this 21st Century the Age of Technology, we are still plagued by religious beliefs that are contributing causes toward terrorism, killings and wars between nations. Can logic & rationality be brought into the belief in God and become a reality so that all killings for and in the name of God will eventually cease? God is a God for ALL & too large to fit into any one religion.

Namaste,

Kurt

Please peruse my book which can be accessed FREE at:

http://www.transcendentalism.us/

(All profits from the book are donated to charities)
I have posted on numerous boards. The surprising results have been that many who practice logical reasoning have suggested as an answer to religious radicals, that they read my book.

See
http://www.near-death.com/forum/0157.html

God has no desire to LORD over mankind. If a person's spirit has interacted with the Spirit of God, their spirit will KNOW that the soul of all of the "Men of God" are NOW a part of God in the spiritual realm & will remain there for eternity.

The goals of ALL religions are the same; a deserved, appropriate, just finale.

There is only ONE God; a God for ALL.

THIS I KNOW AS A FACT; it is God's message.

I, Brian · 05-22-2004, 04:39 PM

Again, kkawohl, you are effectively stating "my perception of god is better than yours". To my mind, that cheapens your argument. By completely failing to understand anything of the audience you criticise: their aspirations, successes, history and culture - then you are effectively deploring one form of narrow-minded fundamentalism with your own, IMO.

kkawohl · 05-22-2004, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Again, kkawohl, you are effectively stating "my perception of god is better than yours". To my mind, that cheapens your argument. By completely failing to understand anything of the audience you criticise: their aspirations, successes, history and culture - then you are effectively deploring one form of narrow-minded fundamentalism with your own, IMO.

Perception, dear Brian, is the key point. Sometimes one must look beyond what is written to see the truth. The goal is to equally credit the messengers of God rather than to have each religion claim, "Our messenger of God is more correct than yours".

The Scenario

The souls of a Rabbi, a Christian minister, and a Islamic cleric appeared at the gates of heaven at the same time and they eye each other suspiciously. St. Peter (the gatekeeper) asked if there is a problem.

The Rabbi tells St. Peter , "Ours is the true religion. We have the word of God that this is so and it is written in the Torah that God said that we are the chosen children of God, not the Christians or the Muslims."

The Christian minister says, "Jesus told us that he is the son of God and that the only way to God was by following his teachings and that unless one is born again, one would not get into heaven. What Jesus said is the word of God and it is written in the holy Bible".

The Muslim cleric says, "God has told Muhammad that he was the last true prophet and that everything that God told him was written in the Koran and that those who did not follow what was written there, would not get into heaven".

Other souls appeared and some sided with and gathered around each of their leaders, while some other souls who sided with no one entered directly through the gates of heaven.

St. Peter told the souls who had gathered around the souls of their clerics, "In heaven there can be no disagreement and until you all are in agreement, you have to move to the Purgatory area".

No agreement was reached and eventually the souls died (Hell) because souls who were not with God could not exist.

The lesson is: Having tunnel-vision or being closed-minded, without compassion for the belief of others around you can be bad for the body and suicide to the soul.

Namaste,
Kurt

samabudhi · 05-23-2004, 01:03 PM

Fair enough about the wine thing, but really, I reiterate my concerns on ambiguity in the 'perfect' language of Arabic.

Quote:

Strong drink, games of chance, idols

What if strong just means very sweet? What's the Kaba if not an idol?
For a scripture that is supposed to be perfect and easy to understand, it sure does raise a lot of questions. You say one does not have to be wise, and indeed the majority of debates around the Qu'ran do not encourage such a virtue. What is encouraged is persnicketiness, parrot fashion learning and a swamps-of-sadness lack of curiosity, since everything is explained and there's nothing left to do except try to bow even lower than the ground permits.

About the second point, I can't actually follow what you're saying. Just sounds like a whole lot more quotes in an attempt to bury us in confusion.
You should quote less and explain more.

This approach that people take to defending dogma is similar to what lawyers do to save a sinking case. They bury their opposition in a mass of information. Not only does it not matter AT ALL. It deceives both sides into thinking that what they're arguing about has some significance and that whoever is the 'winner' at the end is necessarily correct.
It's like when Vitalstatistics ran around the boxing ring in order to tire his, clearly, more capable opponent in 'Asterix and The Big Fight.'
Yes it's clever what he did, but the purpose of the match was to see who was more able in close quarter combat, otherwise they would not be doing it in a ring.

So Mohsin runs around the ring throwing banana peels behind him to slow everyone else down, and once everyone who knows it isn't worth the effort buggars off, he stands alone thinking he is right and continues in his ignorance.

As long as he has people whom which he can entertain with his ideas of a city (the Qu'ran) whose back roads and alley ways he knows better than his nose, he will continue on this rather pointless journey. I'm not at all in the clear here, but encouraging discussion on dogma in the Qu'ran is not good for either parties. The fact that the Qu'ran is so ambiguous makes it virtually impossible to say 'Yay' or 'Nay' to anything with any degree of certainty.

I, Brian · 05-23-2004, 06:03 PM

Kurt, you are repeating yourself, and the message is the same - *you* are as closed-minded as the very people you rail against.

You consider yourself an authority on religions and peoples you know almost nothing about. Your perceptions of Judaism seem gleaned from fundamentalist Christianity in the USA, and your perception of Islam seems taken from the violence of Middle Eastern unrest as broadcast on Fox News. Now, really, what sort of position of authority does that really give you?

I completely understand your experience with God, but I was always able to stand back enough to look at the wider picture. You seem to have failed to do that.

You should perhaps do something about taking your own advice - as you are the very person you are criticising first:

Quote:

The lesson is: Having tunnel-vision or being closed-minded, without compassion for the belief of others around you can be bad for the body and suicide to the soul.

Mohsin · 05-23-2004, 07:39 PM

Firstly, concider how the verse is translated by different translators.

005.090
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! intoxicants and games of chance and (sacrificing to) stones set up and (dividing by) arrows are only an uncleanness, the Shaitan's work; shun it therefore that you may be successful.

Now you are stressing on one point that the Arabic language is ambiguous. I want to ask you, do you know Arabic? There are several meanings for a word but they are according to the language and as translated. Who are you to translate or judge what a word actully means and what are the translations. Those who have translated it and know Arabic, ask them, else don't pass hollow arguments. It is a fact that no translation of the Qur'an in any language is regarded as 100% correct. Ask any person. As I said that a translation is a human handiwork and not a word of God. Still, people recommend several of them as authentic enough and also say that inform if any errors are found and errors are found.

About Kaaba, it is only a point or place that which the Muslims face when worshipping. Earlier, during the life time of Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H), The Muslims faced Bait-ul-Makdus(in Jerusalem). It was Allah(SWT) who told Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) of pray facing the Kaaba.

About the second point, I told you people to read the context and everything would be clear as going into deep explanation may seem as if I am offending other religions. Still, for people like Samabudhi I will give some.

[5.68] Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.
[5.69] Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.
[5.70] Certainly We made a covenant with the children of Israel and We sent to them apostles; whenever there came to them an apostle with what that their souls did not desire, some (of them) did they call liars and some they slew.
[5.71] And they thought that there would be no affliction, so they became blind and deaf; then Allah turned to them mercifully, but many of them became blind and deaf; and Allah is well seeing what they do.
[5.72] Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.

If you read the verse in context, you will come to know that according to the Qur'an, the Torah and the Injeel were revealed from Allah, and the Qur'an says that those who will truely follow them, they will prosper. But, according to the Qur'an, the Jews went against their Torah because one reason is that ([5:70]) many messangers were sent to them but they called some of them liars and some of them they killed. Thus only those who would go/have gone according to the true Torah would be the Jews prospering. About the Christians, the Qur'an says that they went against the teachings of Jesus Christ(P.B.U.H) and the true Injeel when they called Jesus(P.B.U.H) son of Marium as God. Again, according to the Qur'an, those who would go/have gone according to the true Injeel would be the Christians prospering. Thus the Qur'an confirms the holy scriptures as a word of God, but also says that they were not followed and only those who would have truely followed them, they would be the ones prospering. This explanation goes true for the verse [2:62] as well.
I do not think that the verse [3:85] needed more explanation as was given.

I hope that no Christian and/or Jew is offended and the explanition is cleared. Again, if not, read the context.

kkawohl · 05-24-2004, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Kurt, you are repeating yourself, and the message is the same - *you* are as closed-minded as the very people you rail against.

...and I suppose that you arrived at your conclusion from my above statements:

"The goal is to equally credit the messengers of God rather than to have each religion claim, "Our messenger of God is more correct than yours".

The goals of ALL religions are the same; a deserved, appropriate, just finale.

There is only ONE God; a God for ALL".

I, Brian · 05-24-2004, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkawohl

There is only ONE God; a God for ALL".

Indeed - but remember to give other faiths their due for their successes. These are actually quite innumerous. Even a cursory look over the social development of humanity should bring this to light - once you can get over the sensationalism of events such as the Crusades and Inquisition.

kkawohl · 05-24-2004, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Indeed - but remember to give other faiths their due for their successes. These are actually quite innumerous. Even a cursory look over the social development of humanity should bring this to light - once you can get over the sensationalism of events such as the Crusades and Inquisition.

Agreed. All religions that teach peace, love and compassion for others are basically correct & the souls of those who abide thereby & live righteously will reap their rewards...this however does not preclude the necessity to bring rationality into religions. We have improved our living standards, yet superstitions are still the norm in religions.

Should we continue along our present path, killing and destroying each other & claim "Allah/God Is Great" or should:

WE THE PEOPLE of this world hereby proclaim that forthwith we will use common sense in deciding whether to live in peace or die for a cause that history in the future shall wonder whether God was misunderstood by the masses of a bygone era? Should we ponder and question:

1. As Christians, Moslems, Jews and other denominations, should we still today use the Torah, Qur’an, Bible and other quotes or writings by prophets as being the "Word Of God" and the only road map to Allah/God, or use these writings as references to newer roads to God which are safer, wider and leads there directly?

2. Is the God Of War who sought revenge, killed the masses through floods and wars, who was the God of Abraham, Noah, Moses, and Muhammad, the same God of today who wants all souls to coexist in peace and tranquility for eternity?

3. Was the spiritual realm where God exists in another dimension ever breached by a man named Jesus ? Was Jesus the only son of God, or are we, who are children of God, also a son and daughter of God?

4. Did God ever, and will God ever in the future, interfere with anything that happens on this earth or is God and the Devil being blamed for our problems and bad decisions ?

5. Did the prophets of the past make direct contact with God; did they talk to and receive physical revelations from God, or were these inspirations from God & possibly also misinterpretations of their own mind?

6. Do we still need to follow the teachings of prophets who lived in the past, or can we be inspired directly by God, without intermediaries?

7. Does the devil or Satan exist or were they invented by man to frighten people to believe that the devil would claim the soul of those who did not believe in Allah/God?

8. Did God come out of nowhere; always exist, magically create everything; or did God possibly come into existence with the first soul striving to merge and coexist with other souls; combining their knowledge and expanding their intelligence with the addition of each soul into an eternal existence?

9. Is our purpose for living to have our body and soul die, or to lead a good productive life, expand our knowledge, help our fellow man, and upon our physical death, to have our soul be united with God into an eternal harmonious spiritual life through eternity?

When WE THE PEOPLE realize that Allah/God is the ultimate rationality then we will make our OWN decisions and live our lives without a need for dominance or slavery. Allah/God does not want slaves.

Namaste,
Kurt

I, Brian · 05-24-2004, 07:11 PM

But, again, you are playing into sensationalism with notions of war and conflict. Strangely enough, the Christians, Muslims, and Jews of Britain seem to be doing a remarkably good job of living together without relentlessly battling against one another.

You stand by some good sensibilities - but you seem to be talking at people, rather than with them. To make it a constructive dialogue, not a relentless monologue, perhaps it's worth trying to understand the mind and reasoning not of the extremists you see on Fox, but the ordinary everyday people who actually carry and practice the faith.

kkawohl · 05-24-2004, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I, Brian

But, again, you are playing into sensationalism with notions of war and conflict. Strangely enough, the Christians, Muslims, and Jews of Britain seem to be doing a remarkably good job of living together without relentlessly battling against one another.

I suppose one can remain in a cocoon in Britain and live a life of quiet contentment while religious differences in the rest of the world are the causes of strife and killings. Why do you think radical Muslim clerics promote Islamic controlled governments? Ask your Muslim friends whether they prefer a secular or Islamic government. Why has this idealism caused problems with Muslim neighbors? Chechnya wants independence from Russia in order to be an Islamic state. The same is true in areas of the Philippines, Indonesia, India, Malaysia, Thailand, Cambodia, etc. Anti-Christian persecution in Sudan took the lives of 200,000 people, mostly Christians, last year alone.

Is it sensationalism or the skewed truth about Allah/God that promotes this conflict?

Vajradhara · 05-24-2004, 10:16 PM

Namaste kkawohl,

thank you for the post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkawohl

There is only ONE God; a God for ALL".

ah.. but, you see.... therein lies the rub

i have no God and require none to be present in any shape, form or fashion. generally speaking, i am in agreement with the majority of your posts, it is in this area, however, where we'll disagree.

perhaps you are correct... if people gave up their view of a personal, Creator God, these types of arguements and disagreements may not occur.... who can say?

kkawohl · 05-24-2004, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

i have no God and require none to be present in any shape, form or fashion. generally speaking, i am in agreement with the majority of your posts, it is in this area, however, where we'll disagree.

perhaps you are correct... if people gave up their view of a personal, Creator God, these types of arguements and disagreements may not occur.... who can say?

...but then people would have to implement rationality & think for themselves instead of thinking and believing what they have been conditioned to think.

Righteous living, not whether one believes in God, will bring the soul to its destiny.

Do you believe that you have a spirit or soul?