Miracles, THE ULTIMATE CHALLENGE

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by Avinash

If such writings are claimed to have been received by "special messengers" then this is most likely a clever ploy to defeat anyone who tries to question the text.
Andrew

Andrew,

I agree with most of your posting...but "messengers" and "mystics", IMHO, are the same. If a mystic gains spiritual insight, he has a message to deliver. If a messenger's text can not be questioned then that so-called messenger has misinterpreted his own message.

Namaste,
Kurt

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by kkawohl

Cute, Brian. Experiencing God can only be via your spirit. Physically hearing or seeing God is due to schizophrenia.

Cute? I'm just showing you the actual rationality of your own argument.You walk in here and tell us that you have had the One True Vision of God, that everyone else has schizophrenia, and dismiss other religions even though you haven't actually got a clue about anything to do with these religions. Rational? No, it's just another form of narrow-mindedness.

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Cute? I'm just showing you the actual rationality of your own argument.You walk in here and tell us that you have had the One True Vision of God, that everyone else has schizophrenia, and dismiss other religions even though you haven't actually got a clue about anything to do with these religions. Rational? No, it's just another form of narrow-mindedness.

I repeat. Experiencing God can only be via your spirit. Physically hearing or seeing God is due to schizophrenia.

I stated that religions need to eliminate superstitious beliefs. If the medieval practices and the medieval beliefs of Christianity, Judaism and Islam that are based on superstitions were eliminated, then we could start building a rational and logical belief system that is based on truth and an understanding of spirituality. This is the value of truthfulness and rationality.

Truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be substantiated by science or those that can not be proven to be wrong. Spiritual interaction is only possible between spirits. Claims of supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not truths.

ALL religions that teach love, peace & compassion for others are basically correct & all who live thereby will have their soul united with God; this does no preclude the need for religions to be rational & to remove superstitions which are contributing forces toward terrorism.

[Mohsin]

A couple of questions for kkawohl/kurt. Not for deep arguments, just somethings that I want to confirm from you.
Firstly, do you believe that the Bible and the Qur'an were revealed from God?
Secondly, do you think that God can, in any way, tell a lie or make a mistake?
Please answer breifly, preferably in a simple yes or no.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by kkawohl

I repeat. Experiencing God can only be via your spirit. Physically hearing or seeing God is due to schizophrenia.

I would be interested to see your justification of this. I presume you have a very detailed rational and scientific explanation of how God (whatever that is) can only be experienced by your spirit (whatever that is)? You certainly don't seem to have a clue what schizophrenia is - your use of the term is quite immature.

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by Mohsin

A couple of questions for kkawohl/kurt. Not for deep arguments, just somethings that I want to confirm from you.
Firstly, do you believe that the Bible and the Qur'an were revealed from God?

No. The Bible & Qur'an are the writings of man & revelations from God to the spirit of man & then translated by man's mind. All men are fallible. We can use the Bible and Qur'an as stepping stones that lead to God; we should not interpret everything therein literally.

Secondly, do you think that God can, in any way, tell a lie or make a mistake?

NO. God does not in any way tell a lie or make a mistake....but mistakes are made by men whose spirit interacts with God. When man's spirit interacts with God, it is like "tapping into the mind of God". God does not "tell" man anything.

Namaste,
Kurt

[kkawohl]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I would be interested to see your justification of this. I presume you have a very detailed rational and scientific explanation of how God (whatever that is) can only be experienced by your spirit (whatever that is)? You certainly don't seem to have a clue what schizophrenia is - your use of the term is quite immature.

Throughout several millennia evidence has been presented that the Spirit of God has interacted with our spirit; this interaction was interpreted accordingly and written in the Torah, Bible, Qur'an, etc. When God interacts with us it is like a father interacting with a 2 year old child. Our mind has to translate what the spirit has assimilated. It is the knowledge of everything in the past, not the future. The future makes its own path & is not predetermined.

How do you touch and feel without emotion or sense; which is spirit; without having it recorded by your subconscious where the spirit resides? The spirit is spirit and not a religious force and is neither heaven sent, nor heaven inspired, though some people via deep meditation can have their spirit interact with God’s spirit. Sentience is the ability to sense, capability of feeling, consciousness. The spirit is in the subconscious and often controls what one writes and thinks. The soul and spirit are often considered identical, though the soul has also been referred to as the vessel for the spirit.

Schizophrenia is ageneral term for a wide range of mental disorders characterized by a disassociation of sensory input, feelings and emotions on one hand and thoughts on the other. Symptoms can include hallucinations, hearing voices, a feeling that one's thoughts or actions are under someone else's control, and many others. An exact definition of schizophrenia still evades medical researchers, the evidence indicates more and more strongly that schizophrenia is a severe disturbance of the brain's functioning. There are billions of nerve cells in the brain. Each nerve cell has branches that transmit and receive messages from other nerve cells. The branches release chemicals, called neurotransmitters, which carry the messages from the end of one nerve branch to the cell body of another. In the brain afflicted with schizophrenia, something goes wrong in this communication system.

[I, Brian]

Indeed - on the first part you express personal FAITH.

The second copy/paste essentially points out that schizophrenia is an extremely complex phenomenon. It is not an affliction that should be used as light insult on others - not in a mature debating environment.

But again notice your pronouncement - that your own Faith is rational, but any other opinion is irrational. I actually agree to a greater degree with many aspects of your personal perception of Divinity and how it works - but what I absolutely cannot understand is your apparent judgement and dismissal of other faiths, simply because they work on different levels to your own.

Not everyone who has faith is an extremist - there are somewhere around 2 billion Muslims in the world - just because there is an extreme element the whole faith should not be condemned, just as Christianity is not condemned by its own terrorist adherents.

Faith represents a way of being - an ideology. However, *any* ideology can be used for political purposes, for political justification. It doesn't matter whether that ideology is rooted in monotheistic "righteousness" or secular "freedom" - it remains a rallying point that doesn't necessarily obey, serve, or represent the actual ideas and aspirations that formed those ideological concepts in the first place.

[suanni]

I agree with kkawohl in some respects but this is merely my opinion, with regard to religious writings. They are written by man who believed he was writing God's word. Man is fallible. Who is to say the men who wrote the religious books couldn't help but put their own point of view down? It also must be remembered that what is one man's holy book is another man's mythology. The story of Noah has been found to be the duplication and 'embroidering' of a much older story that can be clarified. Many of the stories in the scriptures in every religion and classical mythology have similar messages but in a different format, which IMO suggests that they are stories to highlight the moral in a story reflective of the culture. We learn morals much easier in story form and even more so if we believe it is the word of God.
However with regard to 'hearing voices and such like' being labelled schizophrenic....I have always been able to hear and see spirits. I made the error of letting this slip infront of a GP as a teenager. The GP immediately had me assessed by a psychiatrist....I am not schizophrenic, I am perfectly sane and that could be clarified with the shrink that the doc sent me to. Really got an ear bashing from my mother on this one...the whole family have these 'capabilities', although it came out stronger in me. Yes, I know schizophrenia is inherited but I am not schizophrenic and neither is any of my family....strange, yes, but not one of us have a 'mental' disorder more serious than occaision mild depression and we all suffer that from time to time.
Many of us have had wonderful insights, insights that can only really be classified as Divine inspiration. I have also begun to notice just how many upon this forum have had NDEs and these must be awesome. Never had one....don't really wish to have one!! A great deal have had 'messages' with them. My guess is the message is the same its how we interpret it that is the trick.

I also agree with Brian with

Not everyone who has faith is an extremist - there are somewhere around 2 billion Muslims in the world - just because there is an extreme element the whole faith should not be condemned, just as Christianity is not condemned by its own terrorist adherents.

We only ever hear of extremists because of the horrifying results of their actions. Overall the vast majority of 'religious people' regardless of their religion are more concerned with their day to day lives than blowing up someone or something. And of those who are deeply religious who decide to go on a religious retreat for further spiritual or Divine insight, we don't hear of their actions either. The only news is bad news that we hear of, especially with regard to overseas, or 'our boys' overseas.
It isn't only religious extremists who blow buildings and the like up. Animal rights extremists, the extremists of the anti-abortion lobbies also do this. Most extremism has nothing whatsoever to do with religion or the cause associated with it, the religion or cause is merely a mask of an underlying motive.

I have also noticed a major barny brewing here.....

[samabudhi]

Faith represents a way of being - an ideology. However, *any* ideology can be used for political purposes, for political justification.

If religion/faith was divine, surely it would have some sort of in built protection from people who would associate things like extremism to it. If faith knows that people will dive into it and follow it to the letter, as they surely do, since they require this, then they should be structured to not allow misinterpretation. If the Qu'ran is so perfect and easy to understand, then what's all the confusion about with terrorists? If your answer to this is that humans are inherently fallable, then doesn't the problem rest with the creator anyway?

He makes flawed beings and then a flawless Qu'ran. How about making flawless being, no need for Qu'ran.
If there are no texts, there will be no misinterpretation. No religions, nothing to fight over.

Most extremism has nothing whatsoever to do with religion or the cause associated with it, the religion or cause is merely a mask of an underlying motive.

So why is it that we always see extremism attached to religion? What are the conditions that religion is providing for extremism to attach itself to religion.

Faith is a major one. Relying on what other people say and not deriving wisdom from your own experience.
A problem I see with Abrahamic religions is that they set out rules and then show you where and when they can be broken. They are so adamant about 'do not kill' and yet noone thinks twice about imposing it. So noone really knows what is right and what is wrong. The truth is there is no such thing as right and wrong. They are both relative, and yet they are carved in stone by God himself for the world to see and obey!?

There are no absolutes.

[I, Brian]

The problem with Faith is how it is interpreted from doctrine and scripture. For example, Jesus seems to be pretty darn implicit in the Gospels that those who follow with Jesus are not to harm others - even strike others - let alone kill other people. Yet this hasn't stopped self-professed Christians through history getting involved in this practice. I'm not sure what the modern-day self-justification of the IRA is, but I suspect it's something of the "mafia mentality" - that of itnentionally committing "sin" in the belief that you will be forgiven for it regardless.

It's also important not to underestimate the actual social value that organised religion has played in our past - Islam has the principles of welfare built into it's scriptures, and the Quran also highly recommends education and learning for Muslims - which is precisely why Islam made such a point of preserving ancient writings and developing the foundations of European science.

[Mohsin]

I would like to make a few comments about extremisum when attached with religion. They do it so that people would not question them, rather their beliefs, or as said, using their beliefs to cover up their acts. The Jews did it, the Christians did it, the Muslims did it and lets not forget the Hindus who did it as well. The point that one should realize is that the teachings of the religion, the Qur'an, the Bible, they do not support these kind of acts. I mean if you just look at the present time, things happening in Karachi. Where does Islam say that you should blow yourself up in a mosque killing the fellow Muslims?
Most of these people do it for political reasons and use religion for backing up. Also, I would like to say that religion is not the only thing used to support the acts of violance. People like Hittler used the evolution theory to support his racial terrorism, and also, racial discremination is observed at many places. When it goes to an extreame, there is again killing and suffering. The point is that people should have knowledge and education. The real truth should be brought forward.

[Mohsin]

I have noticed a question at several places that why are'nt we born believers and why are we full of flaws. I gave a few arguments to a friend and they were regarded as satisfying. May be they will help satisfy you people as well.

Firstly, we have a free will. Face it, we can do things with our will. We can eat when we wish to, we can do several things when we want to do them. Thus, we have got some control over ourself. If Allah(the Almighty God) would have made us flawless, we would not have been given this freedom of will. We would have been like angels who only do what Allah(the Almighty God) orders them to do. Also, it is because of the proper use of this will that we would be recieving the so many gifts and rewards that are promised to us in the paradise. I mean, would the paradise be for those people as well who choose not to believe. Thus Allah has created a method to sort out between believers and unbelievers.

Secondly, it is an Islamic belief that every baby who is born is sinless. The baby born is innocent. So, if it dies in its innocence, it is not going to get punished on the day of judgement. Hence, it is afterwords that people grow older and learn bad things that they enter in the life of disbelief.

Thirdly, it comes from Qur'an that for about one thousand years after the Prophet Adam and Eve(P.B.U.T) were sent to this world, all the people were believers. It was afterwords that the people started deviating. Thus, prophets were sent to the people to guide them to the right path. This process continued until Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H). And now, there will be the end, the judgement day. No more prophets to warn us and guide us.

I might not be good at explaining this, but I think these will help.

[samabudhi]

You know what I love about you Mohsin?
You really try. The lava is pouring down the mountain getting ever nearer, but you are firm. You stand your ground.
It shows conviction, and I appreciate that.
Also, you show such composure in the face of adversity. Someone could have an unstopable argument, but you do not flinch.

Kay. Enough handing out candy, now for the stuff that keeps this forum ticking.

Originally Posted by Mohsin

I would like to make a few comments about extremisum when attached with religion. They do it so that people would not question them, rather their beliefs, or as said, using their beliefs to cover up their acts. The Jews did it, the Christians did it, the Muslims did it and lets not forget the Hindus who did it as well. The point that one should realize is that the teachings of the religion, the Qur'an, the Bible, they do not support these kind of acts. I mean if you just look at the present time, things happening in Karachi. Where does Islam say that you should blow yourself up in a mosque killing the fellow Muslims?
Most of these people do it for political reasons and use religion for backing up. Also, I would like to say that religion is not the only thing used to support the acts of violance. People like Hittler used the evolution theory to support his racial terrorism, and also, racial discremination is observed at many places. When it goes to an extreame, there is again killing and suffering. The point is that people should have knowledge and education. The real truth should be brought forward.

I feel you greatly overestimate people's abilities.
You think that simply handing someone a logical argument (not that I agree that your arguments are logical, but the point is that you think they are) is enough to convince them and for them to change their old habits and their mode of life in general. Surely experience has shown you that life is anything this simple. You would do well to investigate psychology, whether it is western or Buddhist, and understand how the brain works.

You see, we're made of two parts really. The subconscious and the conscious, which moreorless relate to the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex.
Now the prefrontal cortex works on logic, and is where we, our personality and consciousness reside. The amygdala is the theatre of our emotions and our subconsciousness. It doesn't work on logic. It works on feelings. You can't argue with it. You can affect it, certainly, but not through rational thought. Now in most people, the subconscious has more power than the conscious. When faced with the choice to do work, for the greater good of the future, or a naked gazelle eyed maiden with bulg..., most would turn to the maiden. This is natural. So all your arguments are futile if you don't address the deeper issues which are the cause of extremism, misinterpretation, malpractice, aversion and negative perception to Islam, heresy etc.

Accountants, mathematicians, physicists etc work with logic their whole lives. They are more prone to flying of the hook (going mad) than most.
Logic is not enough. We are not just consciousness, we are subconscious too. You know, the Theravada (one of the two main divisions in Buddhism) are very much like this as well. They're very austere and extremely pious. Unfortunately, their practice only acknowledges the conscious, rational part of the mind, not the humane, living part. Actually, they do acknowledge the subconscious mind, but that's all. Their practise does not include affecting it.

Being a Muslim, I imagine, is like living off millet and water for your entire life. It's good for you, but damn if you don't feel like shlerping up a big ol' milkshake now and again. Do you remember The Matrix (1), when Cypher just couldn't take it anymore. What he was involved in made sense, it was good and just, but he couldn't take what he had to go through to achieve it. His primitive mind got the better of him and he turned, to the detriment of others. His directives, his purpose and all the explanations were probably perfect. It was neglecting that he is a human being with all the same needs and fallibilities as everyone else that pushed him over the edge.

I see the same thing happening with Islam.

[samabudhi]

Originally Posted by Mohsin

Firstly, we have a free will. Face it, we can do things with our will. We can eat when we wish to, we can do several things when we want to do them. Thus, we have got some control over ourself.

That's one well laid out argument you have there.
We wouldn't eat if our stomach wasn't complaining. We have a choice, yes, eat or die. Not much of a choice if you ask me.

There is no such thing as free will.