Misconceptions and quries about Islam

[Mohsin]

Regards.
Really amazed that you spent some time just to find an error, but as I said earlier is some posts, there are several diehard critics of the Qur'an who had spent their entire lives finding errors and proving the Qur'an wrong. This point was also pointed out several times and was clerified by the scholors. I will paste the answer as it was delivered publically.

(Q) Assalamu Alaikum - My name is Ashfaq, and I am a student. My question is, Qur’an in several places has mentioned that… ‘the Heavens and the Earth were created in six days’. But in Surah Fussilat, it says… ‘the Heaven and the Earth was created in eight days’ - Isn’t this a contradiction? In the same Verse also says… ‘that the Earth was created in six days, and then later, on the Heaven in two days’. This is against the Big Bang Theory… ‘that the Heavens and Earth were created simultaneously’.
(Dr. Zakir). Brother has posed a very important question. The Qur'an says… ‘the Heaven and the Earth were created in six days’ and in Surat Fussilat, it says… ‘eight days’. Isn’t there a contradiction - and also contradiction with the Big Bang Theory. I do agree with you brother the Qur’an says in several places that… ‘the Heavens and the Earth were created in six days, in several places’. In Surah Araf, Ch. 7, V. No. 54; in Sura Yunus, Ch. 10, V. No. 3; in Surah Hud, Ch. 11, V. No.7; in Surah Furqan Ch. 25, V. No.59; Surah Sajdah, Ch. 32, V. No. 4; in Surah Hadid, Ch. 57, V. No. 4. In several places, the Qur’an says… ‘the Heavens and the Earth were created in six days’. It is not the earthly days - It is ‘Ayyaam’. ‘Very long periods’ - which Scientists have got no objection. And I also agree with you, that in the Qur’an does speak about… ‘the creation of the Heavens and the Earth’… in Surah Fussilat. The verse you are refering to brother is Verses 9 to12, which says that… ‘Do you not believe in the One who has created the Earth in two days… and do you join equals with Him - Do you join partners with Him, who is the Lord of the worlds’? Verse No. 10 says… ‘He has set on the Earth, mountains standing firm and given due nourishment on the Earth, in four days’. Verse No. 11 says…. ‘Moreover in His design, He comprehended the sky when it was smoke and He said to it and the Earth… ‘come ye together willingly or unwillingly’, and they said ‘we come together in willing obedience’. This, He did in two days. For if you read it just without thinking two plus four plus two is eight days. Qur’an gives the answer in starting of the Verse - that is… says that… ‘all those who will take out this fault, they are equal to those people who will join partners to God’. Means, Allah (SWT) knew that there will be people who will take out fault in the Qur’an, in this verse - they will be the Mushrikhs. And today this verse is commonly used by the Christian missionaries and many others against the Mulsims. If you go around… I have been travelling in the world - this question was posed to me even there - the Christian missionaries they pose this question. Qur’an says… it predicts… that people will ask about this question, and these people will be those who associate partners with God. Let us analyse the first two Verses - that is, Surah Fussilat, Ch. 41, Verse No. 9 to 10 says… that… ‘the Earth was created in two days, and then mountains were set on it, and nourishment was given in due proportion in four days’. So it says two days the Earth was formed mountains were set on it afterwards in four days total comes to six days. Then Verse No. 11, starts with the Arabic word ‘Summa’. Now the Arabic word ‘Summa’, can be translated in three different ways. One is ‘Then’, one is ‘Moreover’, and the other is ‘Simultaneously’. I do know that many translations have translated the Arabic word ‘Summa’, as ‘then’. If you translate ‘Summa’ as ‘then’ - then there is a contradiction. It says… ‘then’ the Heavens were made in two days. That means two plus four, plus two is equal to eight days. But the exact translation should be ‘Summa’ - should be translated as ‘Moreover’ or ‘Simultaneously’. And Abdullah Yusuf Ali, Alhamdullillah in this place has translated ‘Summa’ correctly - as ‘Moreover’. If you translate ‘Summa’, as ‘Moreover’ or ‘Simultaneously’ - it will mean that when the Earth and the Mountains were created in six days, ‘Simultaneously’ the Heavens were created in two days. For example suppose a builder he gives in his brochure… ‘that I have constructed a ten story building along with it’s surrounding and compound wall, in six months. When a person who wants to buy a flat in that building - he goes to the builder and he asks for more details. So the builder says… ‘It took me two months to make the basement of the building ,and another four months to make the ten story. And while I was building the basement and the story, I simultaneously built the compound wall and the surrounding in two months’. It is possible - so then he is not contradicting - Total comes to yet six months. So similarly when Surah Fussilat, Ch. 41, Verse No. 9 to 12, it says that… ‘While the Earth was created along with the mountain in six days simultaneously the Heaven was created in two days’ - There is no contradiction. And similarly if you take ‘then’ - it contradicts with Science, because Earth was created first , ‘then’ were created the Mountains - It is contradicting. Similarly Qur’an speaks in Surah Baqarah, Ch. 2, Verse 29, that… ‘Allah made the Earth , ‘Summa’ the Heaven’. But unfortunately , here Abdullah Yusuf Ali has translated ‘Summa’ wrongly, as ‘then’. In Verse 29, of Surah Baqarah, Ch. 2, he translates ‘Summa’, as ‘then’. Allah created the Earth, and then the Heaven - Then there is a contradiction. Even here ‘Summa’ should be translated as ‘Moreover’ or ‘Simultaneously’. If it is translated ‘Simultaneously’ - then it is not a contradiction, because the Big Bang Theory tells us that, the Earth and Heaven were created simultaneously. No wonder in the Qur’an… the Qur’an says in many places… ‘We created the heavens and the earth’, in the other places it says… ‘We created the earth and the heavens’. Giving evidence to the verse of the Qur’an of Surah Anbiya, Ch. 21, Verse No. 30, which says… (Arabic) … ‘that do not the unbelievers see that the Heavens and the Earth were joined together and We clove them asunder.

I surely hope that you are satisfied. As I said, the errors are due to mistranslations and misquotations. The Qur'an in Arabic is flawless.
P.S. Don't you have anything else to do except critising Islam. Sorry if offended.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by samabudhi

· Quran-41:9 : Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?

· Quran- 41:10: He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS…

...

Now do the math: 2 (for earth) + 4 (for nourishment) + 2 (for heavens) = 8 days; and not 6 days.

To myself it looks like quite a bit of overlap - that Quran 41:10 as including "earth" in it as well as nourishment.

And as the argument is made via inference rather than presentation of directly conflicting quotes, it does rather remind of the various flawed infererential thinking I see from fundamentalist Atheism when criticising the Bible.

[samabudhi]

Originally Posted by Mohsin

Really amazed that you spent some time just to find an error, but as I said earlier is some posts, there are several diehard critics of the Qur'an who had spent their entire lives finding errors and proving the Qur'an wrong.

They spent their lives in ignorance until they realised it was a sham. The best critics of a religion are always the people from the inside. So you can ask me all the sticky bits about Buddhism you want.

(Q) Assalamu Alaikum - My name is Ashfaq, and I am a student. My question is, Qur’an in several places has mentioned that… ‘the Heavens and the Earth were created in six days’. But in Surah Fussilat, it says… ‘the Heaven and the Earth was created in eight days’ - Isn’t this a contradiction? In the same Verse also says… ‘that the Earth was created in six days, and then later, on the Heaven in two days’. This is against the Big Bang Theory… ‘that the Heavens and Earth were created simultaneously’.

(Dr. Zakir). Brother has posed a very important question. The Qur'an says… ‘the Heaven and the Earth were created in six days’ and in Surat Fussilat, it says… ‘eight days’. Isn’t there a contradiction - and also contradiction with the Big Bang Theory. I do agree with you brother the Qur’an says in several places that… ‘the Heavens and the Earth were created in six days, in several places’. In Surah Araf, Ch. 7, V. No. 54; in Sura Yunus, Ch. 10, V. No. 3; in Surah Hud, Ch. 11, V. No.7; in Surah Furqan Ch. 25, V. No.59; Surah Sajdah, Ch. 32, V. No. 4; in Surah Hadid, Ch. 57, V. No. 4. In several places, the Qur’an says… ‘the Heavens and the Earth were created in six days’. It is not the earthly days - It is ‘Ayyaam’. ‘Very long periods’ - which Scientists have got no objection.

Let us analyse the first two Verses - that is, Surah Fussilat, Ch. 41, Verse No. 9 to 10 says… that… ‘the Earth was created in two days, and then mountains were set on it, and nourishment was given in due proportion in four days’. So it says two days the Earth was formed mountains were set on it afterwards in four days total comes to six days. Then Verse No. 11, starts with the Arabic word ‘Summa’. Now the Arabic word ‘Summa’, can be translated in three different ways. One is ‘Then’, one is ‘Moreover’, and the other is ‘Simultaneously’. I do know that many translations have translated the Arabic word ‘Summa’, as ‘then’. If you translate ‘Summa’ as ‘then’ - then there is a contradiction. It says… ‘then’ the Heavens were made in two days. That means two plus four, plus two is equal to eight days. But the exact translation should be ‘Summa’ - should be translated as ‘Moreover’ or ‘Simultaneously’. And Abdullah Yusuf Ali, Alhamdullillah in this place has translated ‘Summa’ correctly - as ‘Moreover’. If you translate ‘Summa’, as ‘Moreover’ or ‘Simultaneously’ - it will mean that when the Earth and the Mountains were created in six days, ‘Simultaneously’ the Heavens were created in two days.

Does the Koran uses the same word for 'day' in surah Fussilat(41) verses 9-12 as it does in Al-A'raf (7) verse 54?
If so, then it doesn't matter how long an 'Ayyaam’ is. It is still 6 'very long periods' versus 8 'very long periods.'
And why argue this is you're latter going to say that the heavens were made simultaneously with the earth and therefore it is not 2then4then2 but 2moreover2then4.

This line says they were created one after the other:

[2][29] It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; then He turned to the heaven and made them into seven firmaments. And of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

- from http://quran.al-islam.com/

Can the then in this also be translated as 'simultaneously?'
It doesn't matter if it can since it says he 'turned to the heaven' and made them into seven firmaments.

And I also agree with you, that in the Qur’an does speak about… ‘the creation of the Heavens and the Earth’… in Surah Fussilat. The verse you are refering to brother is Verses 9 to12, which says that… ‘Do you not believe in the One who has created the Earth in two days… and do you join equals with Him - Do you join partners with Him, who is the Lord of the worlds’? Verse No. 10 says… ‘He has set on the Earth, mountains standing firm and given due nourishment on the Earth, in four days’. Verse No. 11 says…. ‘Moreover in His design, He comprehended the sky when it was smoke and He said to it and the Earth… ‘come ye together willingly or unwillingly’, and they said ‘we come together in willing obedience’. This, He did in two days. For if you read it just without thinking two plus four plus two is eight days. Qur’an gives the answer in starting of the Verse - that is… says that… ‘all those who will take out this fault, they are equal to those people who will join partners to God’. Means, Allah (SWT) knew that there will be people who will take out fault in the Qur’an, in this verse - they will be the Mushrikhs. And today this verse is commonly used by the Christian missionaries and many others against the Mulsims. If you go around… I have been travelling in the world - this question was posed to me even there - the Christian missionaries they pose this question. Qur’an says… it predicts… that people will ask about this question, and these people will be those who associate partners with God.

I read the beginning of surah Fussilat as this:

[1] Ha-Mim.

[2] A revelation from (Allah), Most Gracious, Most Merciful;

[3] A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail; a Qur-an in Arabic, for people who understand;

[4] Giving Good News and Admonition: yet most of them turn away, and so they hear not.

[5] They say: "Our hearts are under veils, (concealed) from that to which thou dost invite us, and in our ears is a deafness, and between us and thee is a screen: so do thou (what thou wilt); for us, we shall do (what we will!)"

He says: Qur’an gives the answer in starting of the Verse - that is… says that… ‘all those who will take out this fault, they are equal to those people who will join partners to God’.
I don't read that anyway?

P.S. Don't you have anything else to do except critising Islam.

On my day off?! You've got to be kidding. There's nothing more satisfying than nitpicking at religious dogma when I could be at the beach or having a nap.

[Mohsin]

Regards.

Originally Posted by samabudhi

They spent their lives in ignorance until they realised it was a sham. The best critics of a religion are always the people from the inside. So you can ask me all the sticky bits about Buddhism you want.
.

I agree. There are two examples that I can give you of which are great critics of Islam, Salman Rashdi(India) and Taslima Nasreen(Bangladesh). They are both taking refuge in U.K. , I think. Also note that in the span of 150 years, more then 60,000 books have been written only against Islam.

Originally Posted by samabudhi

This line says they were created one after the other:
Quote:
[2][29] It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; then He turned to the heaven and made them into seven firmaments. And of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

Can the then in this also be translated as 'simultaneously?'
It doesn't matter if it can since it says he 'turned to the heaven' and made them into seven firmaments.

Yes it can. This verse was also touched by the scholor. Turned to heavens can also be attending to the heavens. I mean, if you analyze according to the example of the builder constructing a building, during the actual building, he attended to the surroundings and constructed them as well.
Also, the original contradiction has been removed, i.e. six days(periods of time) or the eight days(periods of time).

Originally Posted by samabudhi

He says: Qur’an gives the answer in starting of the Verse - that is… says that… ‘all those who will take out this fault, they are equal to those people who will join partners to God’.
I don't read that anyway?

I will not lie, I agree that Dr. Zakir Naik misquoted, but it is his fault and not a mistake in the Qur'an.

Originally Posted by samabudhi

On my day off?! You've got to be kidding. There's nothing more satisfying than nitpicking at religious dogma when I could be at the beach or having a nap.

I just could not help resist noticing that when you say nitpicking at religious dogma, you are actually mainly criticising Islam only. Can you tell me why?

Lastly, there is a verse in the Qur'an in chapter no.2, verse no.6 and 7 which says:
________________

Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.
Allah has set a seal upon their hearts(centre) and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.
________________

It fits completely on you. No matter what I do, you will continue to disbelieve.

[I, Brian]

Ah, but then you imply that Allah creates men to be deaf to His word, simply so that He can torture them for fun. There is a similar argument from certain Christian circles, and it tends not to convince there either. After all, there are probably a few thousand different Christian and Islamic denominations all promising hell-fire to those outside of themselves in their own special way.

[Mohsin]

Regards to you Brian.

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Ah, but then you imply that Allah creates men to be deaf to His word, simply so that He can torture them for fun. There is a similar argument from certain Christian circles, and it tends not to convince there either. After all, there are probably a few thousand different Christian and Islamic denominations all promising hell-fire to those outside of themselves in their own special way.

According to the Qur'an, only those may prosper who will not associate false gods with Allah. Allah says in several places that
[4.48] Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.
[4.116] Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and He forgives what is besides this to whom He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
I am not claiming this, it is in the Qur'an. You yourself know that there are several commandments like:
Exodus, Ch. No. 20, V. No. 2, says… Thou shalt have no other God besides Him. Thou shalt not make any graven things of thee, of the likeness in the heavens above, in the earth beneath, and the water beneath the earth. Thou shalt not serve them, nor bow down to them, for thy God, is the jealous God.

So the message is somewhat the same. Yes, I do know that people promises hell-fire to those who are outside of themselves. I am not going to comment on that because as the Qur'anic verses say "Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases;"

About the verse that I placed earlier in my post, yes, it is not in every persons fate to become a believer. Even a few believers go astray like I mentioned about Salman Rashdi(India) and Tasleema Nasreen(Bangladesh). Being blind and deaf is as if one sees and hears the signs but choose not to see and hear them. This may be because Allah had sealed their intelligence. Again, it is Allah's will. I am sure that Samabudhi would not be offended because he is not a believer and from the looks of it, he is never going to. If he really thinks that way, well, he would have second thoughts.

I sure wish that I am able to satisfy the comment you placed. I am not as well experianced as you guys. I mean, I have heard a lot of articals and lectures and I gained a lot of knowledge about comparative religion. There can be better comments from other Muslims but I do not find any around here.

[samabudhi]

Originally Posted by Mohsin

I just could not help resist noticing that when you say nitpicking at religious dogma, you are actually mainly criticising Islam only. Can you tell me why?

I used to be on Christianities case. But then I realised that I didn't need to be. There are enough people fleeing the sinking ship and people in Christian countries are very well educated these days. They've worked it out for themselves. Islam is different since it is so very dogmatic about being right. The majority of Christians are moderate people and not really interested in religion. Muslims are very much into their religion. The bubble is yet to be broken, though I see it happening in ex-pats to western countries, Egypt, other Arab countries that are developed enough where the population is well educated and reforms are in motion, and indeed in my own country, South Africa.

I'm bored of arguing with Christians. I'm bored of arguing with Muslims, though every now and then I return just to see what people are arguing about, and then I get caught up in the whole thing again. Probably some misplaced desire to be right and 'prove' it.

I'm equally hard on all dogma. Theres dogma in Buddhism. I've run into Buddhists about this a couple of times. But there's an awlful lot of it in Islam.

It fits completely on you. No matter what I do, you will continue to disbelieve.

You know, I would never say that to someone outside Buddhism. The reason is that if I did, then people would think this: 'I don't believe it. I don't think I ever will, and even the people inside the religion don't believe I will, so what's the point in me trying if I'm only going to be greeted by scepticism anyway.'
A big reason why people stick to their religion when they have such doubts about it is because they can't see any alternative. If other religions say, 'You'll never believe', it's hostile. How can someone feel welcome if that's the message they hear. Nothing is certain anyway. 'You'll never believe in plain conjecture, and if you have such faith in your religion, then why is it so hard to imagine that I might change?'

[Mohsin]

Originally Posted by samabudhi

I used to be on Christianities case. But then I realised that I didn't need to be. There are enough people fleeing the sinking ship and people in Christian countries are very well educated these days. They've worked it out for themselves. Islam is different since it is so very dogmatic about being right. The majority of Christians are moderate people and not really interested in religion. Muslims are very much into their religion. The bubble is yet to be broken, though I see it happening in ex-pats to western countries, Egypt, other Arab countries that are developed enough where the population is well educated and reforms are in motion, and indeed in my own country, South Africa.

I will agree that there are many basic questions about Christian beliefs that cannot be concidered logical and cannot be well supported. When you say that due to education, people are getting away from Islam, I will not totally agree with you. There are many well educated people that I know of and they are very proud of Islam and calling themselves Muslims. If you analyze, it is because of the advancement of science and education, Muslims are getting more attached to Islam. If you come across newly converted Muslims, they are more towards following the teachings of Islam. Yes, I do agree that many people take religion for granted. I mean, when born in an Islaminc society, they tend to not to follow the teachings completely. Also I would like to say that it is due to the advancement in education we have come to know that even small teachings when properly followed can have great uses. Like the one I mentioned about wazoo(a process by which Muslims wash themselves before offering their prayers). It is made essential for us to do wazoo before the prayers. When looking to the outcome of this practice, I mentioned about the plauge called Black Death during the dark ages and Muslims in Spain were protected from it because of this practice which improves hygine. Also during wazoo, we deeply wash our nose. It has been found today that many disease spreading germs germinate in the nose, anthrax being one such disease. Also, many questions are asked about many things which are disallowed for us Muslims. For example, the use of pork, alcahol, the practice of polygeney e.t.c. and when they are scietifically answered, the Muslims tend to believe more.

Originally Posted by samabudhi

You know, I would never say that to someone outside Buddhism. The reason is that if I did, then people would think this: 'I don't believe it. I don't think I ever will, and even the people inside the religion don't believe I will, so what's the point in me trying if I'm only going to be greeted by scepticism anyway.'
A big reason why people stick to their religion when they have such doubts about it is because they can't see any alternative. If other religions say, 'You'll never believe', it's hostile. How can someone feel welcome if that's the message they hear. Nothing is certain anyway. 'You'll never believe in plain conjecture, and if you have such faith in your religion, then why is it so hard to imagine that I might change?'

All I can say is that there are many signs, I mean you youself said that you read the Qur'an, many people have good thoughts about Islam after that and after learning more about Islam, some even embrace it. I said that because you are constantly offending Islam. The invetation to Islam is always there. If you think that you are not among those unbelievers mentioned in the Qur'an then for once think positive about Islam. This verse was revealed when the Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) was becoming tired of inviting several people into Islam and they after even concidering many clear signs, continued to reject. Allah told the state of such many unbelievers by this verse.

[samabudhi]

Originally Posted by Mohsin

Also during wazoo, we deeply wash our nose. It has been found today that many disease spreading germs germinate in the nose, anthrax being one such disease.

Anthrax! HA! How ironic.

Also, many questions are asked about many things which are disallowed for us Muslims. For example, the use of pork, alcahol, the practice of polygeney e.t.c. and when they are scietifically answered, the Muslims tend to believe more.

How about the use of violence. You don't need science to show you the drawbacks.

All I can say is that there are many signs, I mean you youself said that you read the Qur'an, many people have good thoughts about Islam after that and after learning more about Islam, some even embrace it. I said that because you are constantly offending Islam.

You've mentioned something quite interesting, and important.
You speak of Islam as a living entity; a separate being; of me being able to offend it. This is a very dangerous situation indeed. No longer is it about the people. Oh no. The people invest there power in some abstract idea and give life to it. It takes on a life of it's own and, you're gonna love this, evolves in order to survive. It cannot survive in those who do not rely on it. It spreads from host to host and only survives where the host can be deluded into thinking that it is of use and that it truly exists. A religion as a meme. I'm sure this thread is still somewhere on the forum. Take a look. You'll be surprised at the similarities ideas share with primitive life forms. Scary stuff actually.

The invetation to Islam is always there. If you think that you are not among those unbelievers mentioned in the Qur'an then for once think positive about Islam. This verse was revealed when the Prophet Muhammad(P.B.U.H) was becoming tired of inviting several people into Islam and they after even concidering many clear signs, continued to reject. Allah told the state of such many unbelievers by this verse.

It's going to take more than a couple of signs to convert me. Like those who wouldn't convert in the past, I can't get past the logical barriers. It was ridiculous and naive by Muhammad to think that signs would be all that was necessary to convert people. The 'infidels' were endowed with logic. And then he loses his rag because they use it. A see no patience, compassion or understanding in this man or his religion. So for me, not only does Islam lack logic; it lacks any good representatives. If Muhammed was the most pious there was/is, then I'm sorry, but my vote lies elsewhere and no amount of threats of burning hell and eternal damnation are going to force me into ignorance and blind worship.

[Mohsin]

Can you, in clear terms, point by point, tell me what do you not like about Islam?

[samabudhi]

I will give my top three:

1. It is aggressive to people outside the religion.
2. The people inside the religion are not happy.
3. It's religion is not built on solid foundations. What I mean is, how would you start telling someone about Islam. You'd start by saying that it was a revelation from God and go from there. First I would have to believe in God however, and the logic of this is never accurately proven, so the entire argument goes out the window.

I'll demonstrate by comparing my religion, Buddhism with yours (something I'd really rather not do, but here it is anyway.)

Islam starts like this: 'God said such and such and so you must obey.'
Buddhism starts like this: 'There is suffering. In order to stop it you should do such and such.'

Why do people come to religion? Because they've heard that it is divine revelation or because they hear it can help them?
The latter I'm sure you'll agree.

That's it, in a nutshell.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by samabudhi

I will give my top three:

1. It is aggressive to people outside the religion.
2. The people inside the religion are not happy.
3. It's religion is not built on solid foundations. What I mean is, how would you start telling someone about Islam. You'd start by saying that it was a revelation from God and go from there. First I would have to believe in God however, and the logic of this is never accurately proven, so the entire argument goes out the window.

To be fair, those do seem quite antiquated - even ignorant - objections, though. To make a blanket statement that Muslims are not happy with their belief seems a rather extraordinary claim.

Also, the notion of aggression - Islam historically had an extremely good relationship with Judaism and Christianity - certainly until the Crusades, when the Papacy used Islam as a scapegoat and point of political and religious unity - very much how it is being used in the modern world.

As disputing the foundations - you don't believe in God, therefore are you saying there can be no worth in Islam? Again, this does seem rather extraordinary - a simple empty argument.

Originally Posted by samabudhi

I'll demonstrate by comparing my religion, Buddhism with yours (something I'd really rather not do, but here it is anyway.)

Islam starts like this: 'God said such and such and so you must obey.'
Buddhism starts like this: 'There is suffering. In order to stop it you should do such and such.'

As for the comparison - really, it should be impossible to compare the two directly because they are extremely diverse in their world view and cultural formation and expression.

But what is given is not at all a comparison, as much as a point of bias. It could very easily be re-worded thus:

Buddhism starts like this: 'Buddha said such and such and so you must obey.'

Islam starts like this: 'There is suffering. In order to stop it you should do such and such.'

It is simply a matter of perspective.

Originally Posted by samabudhi

Why do people come to religion? Because they've heard that it is divine revelation or because they hear it can help them?
The latter I'm sure you'll agree.

That's it, in a nutshell.

Alas, again very much an oversimplication. You simply project your own biases and imagine that the logic extends beyond your personal experience as a truth of sorts. And it has to be said, such a perception of religion is indeed rather ignorant.

[samabudhi]

Firstly, I really hate these open ended questions. They're like bear traps. Someone asks me to express my opinion, and then I get repremanded when I do.

Originally Posted by I, Brian

To make a blanket statement that Muslims are not happy with their belief seems a rather extraordinary claim.

I said they are not happy in general, not unhappy with their religion.

Also, the notion of aggression - Islam historically had an extremely good relationship with Judaism and Christianity - certainly until the Crusades, when the Papacy used Islam as a scapegoat and point of political and religious unity - very much how it is being used in the modern world.

If you include fanatics in the religion, as I do, then they're aggresive. If you don't, then fine, they're not. But as soon as someone becomes an extremist in Islam, they disown them and say they are not part of Islam. This is just like the Americans saying that those idiot troops in Iraq do not represent Americans. Hello?!? They've been chosen to represent America. What a croc.

As disputing the foundations - you don't believe in God, therefore are you saying there can be no worth in Islam? Again, this does seem rather extraordinary - a simple empty argument.

And a generalisation to boot. Who said I don't believe in God, and I never said there was nothing good in Islam, I just think there are much, MUCH better ways of going about one's life.

As for the comparison - really, it should be impossible to compare the two directly because they are extremely diverse in their world view and cultural formation and expression.

As I said, I hate to make comparisons, but this is comparative-religion.com is it not?

But what is given is not at all a comparison, as much as a point of bias. It could very easily be re-worded thus:

Buddhism starts like this: 'Buddha said such and such and so you must obey.'

Islam starts like this: 'There is suffering. In order to stop it you should do such and such.'

It is simply a matter of perspective.

Getting back to the Kalamas of Kesputta, the Buddha said we should examine everything for ourselves and then decide. His purpose is simply as a guide. As for Islam, despite how ambiguous the language is, it is clear that the word 'must' is prefered over it's euphemism, should. Read the Qu'ran and tell me whether you think Allah/Mohammed is appealing to our intellect or our blind belief. He wouldn't care less if you didn't use your intellect to arrive at Islam. It's a completely different story with Buddhism. As for Islam starting off at 'There is suffering', this is simply not true. It begins up in the clouds with divine revelation. It does not proceed from our present plight.

Alas, again very much an oversimplication. You simply project your own biases and imagine that the logic extends beyond your personal experience as a truth of sorts. And it has to be said, such a perception of religion is indeed rather ignorant.

So we're just supposed to remain in limbo over what's true and what's not. I've tried sitting on the fence and it never works out. If you chose to come to religion, what was your reason? I don't think my conclusions were that off?
I'm Sorry if I'm not contributing to your ideal of a nonconfrontational comparative-religion. That question was just too open in my mind. I shouldn't have answered it.

[I, Brian]

Heh, we are simply discussing opinion.

You wanted to take Mohsin to task for his opinions, I merely returned the favour for yourself.

Ultimately, it is all a part of discussing religion in general and there is nothing wrong with it. Although some of the wording has been somewhat strong to my own mind, there has been no reprimand, excepting in the spirit of debate and discussion.

Btw - I took the liberty of fixing a broken quote tag in your post, as it pretty much hid your comments on Buddhism in relation to Islam.

[Mohsin]

Firstly, I would like to say that Brian gave good comments satifying your initial quries. I realize that this discussion is getting a little to the extreame, but as long as it is logical, I have no problems. We best show good tolerance.


Coming to the claims made that we should judge for ourself and them accept, I would have to say that what if we are not wise enough. I mean, a difference in opinion may cause many huge differences in the religion and thus may cause deviations and separations in it. It is this fact that we observe the commantdents/orders as strictly from Allah(SWT) that we follow it without questioning that has kept us together and close to the religion. If you analyze, Islam is the only religion that covers almost all the aspects of life. Again, we may not initially know how beneficial these may turn out to be, but they are very good. These laws were the same when followed by the Muslims, even more strictly, when they were very advance, i.e. the past history, the European dark ages e.t.c. Infact, it was due to the following of these commandments/orders that they were successful. Do you think that they were more concerned with the earthly benefits of these commandments/orders then the fact that Allah(SWT) had told us to follow them. There are many hidden benefits for every commandment/order and the fact that Allah(SWT) had made it as an order, we have a spiritual feeling about obeying them whether we like it or not. The point that you miss out is that they are beneficial for us in many ways.

Concider a few examples.

Salath(prayer): We Muslims have to pray five time a day. For it, we first have to clean ourself with performing wazoo(the benefits of wazoo were declaired earlier). Then, we perform Salath(prayer) making certain postures. It is argued among many people that this Salath(prayer) is a great form of exercise. A friend of mine was told by a doctor to perform Salath(prayer) regularly as it is a good for the heart. Tell me, would we have come up with a better way to worship then this. I do believe that Islam may be the only religion that completely tells us how to pray.

Fasting: A commandment/order which was for the Jews and Christians as well. We(Muslims) do not eat or drink from dawn till dusk. Also, we abstain ourself from many things. This is not only concidered as a great practice for our health, but also teaches us self control.

Zakkat: A commandment following which the poor and needy can be helped. When Allah(SWT) says that you should help these people, we help them mainly because we are respecting the commandment of Allah(SWT).

Many kinds of food and drinks are made unlawful for us. It you analyze, all these are unhealthy. Who among us all will say that alcahol/toxicants/drugs are good for a person's health? No one. When it turns out that Allah(SWT) had commanded us to not to eat or drink such foods, we will stay away from them whether we like it or not.

Lastly, concider this example. There is a famous saying of the Prophet Muhamad(P.B.U.H) which translate as : "No Arabic is better then a non-Arabic, neither a non-Arabic is better then an Arabic. No white person is better then a black person, neither a black person is better then a white person. The best amongst you near Allah(SWT) is the one who is best in deeds. You have been divided into different tribes so that you may recognize yourself." When people realize that only our deeds are valued in the sight of Allah(SWT), then they focus more in doing good deeds rather then apperance. This kind of teaching impressed many people into embracing Islam who were concidered as one of the lowely class and there rights were taken away just because of their appearance or for no good reason.

Again, we only have limited knowledge and it grows by time. Islam gave the women right of inheritance, propety ownership and disownership 1400 years ago while the west did it sometime in the eighteenth century. So, it is Allah(SWT) who knows best and by making such acts as a commandment, Allah(SWT) has made it essential for us to follow them.

I hope that this clerifies many doubts.