misleading info on books/websites

[Popeyesays]

As to the "recantations" they simply were not recantations of the Essence of the Bab's claims.
"A quick comparison between the above letter and His earlier repentance in Shíráz reveals a familiar pattern:

1. The Báb regards any claims to the position of Deputyship of the Hidden Imam as void. In fact He repeatedly spoke of being the Hidden Imam and an independent manifestation from God during His exile to Azarbayijan. Such claims were far greater than His early position of Bábíya or Gateship which he adopted only months earlier in Gateship. The Báb had bestowed the title of Bábíya and Deputyship to Mullá Husayn as early as the Shíráz period. The title of Bábu'l-Báb further illustrates Shíráz Husayn's new transformation. Therefore theologically from that point onwards the Báb was no longer the Deputy to the Hidden Imam.
2. The Báb rejects any suggestion of leading a rebellion against the State. The Qajar establishment were seriously concerned about the hidden agenda of the Báb. Overtures and suggestions of possible revolt were made by the Ulama keen to form an alliance with the State in suppression of the Bábí movement. After the involvement of the Royal troops in the Tabarsi and Zanjan uprisings – events that Ulama had created – many Bábís openly supported a revolt against the oppressive forces. This in turn increased the suspicion of the officials.
3. The Báb rejects any notions of having acquired knowledge. This issue was floated by the Ulama to belittle His reputation in revealing verses in speed and writing in a style similar to that of Quran. Ulama claimed that the Báb had earlier acquired such knowledge from their peers. In effect claiming that the Báb was repeating what they had taught Him earlier.
4. The Báb refers to His thorough understating of the fundamental Shiite principles. These are namely Tawhid (Oneness), Nabuvva (Prophethood) and Velaya (Guardianship). This was partly in response to Ulama's claim that he had developed a psychological disorder and confused the basic concepts of religion. The Báb in effect conveyed his appreciation of the popular understanding of Shiite teachings and his intimate knowledge of these issues.

by Sepehr Manuchcheri
http://bahai-library.com/?file=manuc...yih_babi_bahai

Bahá'u'lláh clearly announced that the recognition of the manifestation of God and 'steadfastness' His Cause is more important than observing any of the other teachings. Gradual abandonment of Taqiyyah amongst the Bahá'ís was one of the distinguishing feature of the new religion from the Bábí era. After this time the practice of Taqiyyah became unofficially superseded. ibid note #11

"
In the Tablet of Medicine as well as the Tablet of the Proof Bahá'u'lláh pairs wisdom with eloquence or explication (hikmat va bayan), implying that one should proclaim the Cause discretely. In the case of the Tablet of the Proof Bahá'u'lláh insisted that the believers exercise wisdom by not protesting their mistreatment at the hands of the authorities: To none is given the right to protest against anyone concerning that which hath befallen the Cause of God. It behoveth whosoever hath set his face towards the Most Sublime Horizon to cleave tenaciously unto the cord of patience, to put his reliance in God, the Help in Peril, the Unconstrained. O ye loved ones of God! Drink your fill from the wellspring of wisdom, and walk ye in the garden of wisdom, and speak forth with wisdom and eloquence. Thus biddeth you your Lord, the Almighty, the All-knowing.11 " Susan Maneck, Wisdom and Dissimulation http://bahai-library.com/?file=manec...ulation_hikmat

Abd'ul Baha refers to taqqiyah in no uncertain terms:
"In sooth, you must not mind the events in the Radiant Spot. The Holy Land is ever in danger and the flood of ordeal comes from every side, for the call hath become world-wide and the summons hath spread throughout the earth,and enemies, both the unfamiliar and the familiar, are engaged in their plans, their stratagems and schemes to calumniate; and it is evident that such a place is in danger, for against calumny there is no defence, nay rather, some wandering oppressed souls are imprisoned in a fortress, having no helper, assistant nor shelter from the sword of accusation and the teeth of calumny, save God!
Ye must think of this: How many dear friends have hastened to the divine altar; how many blessed souls have sacrificed life; what holy blood was shed; what pure hearts were drowned in blood; how many breasts were offered as targets for the arrows of malice, and how many sanctified bodies were cut to pieces. What is our duty? To be thinking of our own life and to dissimulate and associate with enemies and friends, or should we also follow the righteous and walk in the footprints of those who are great?The numbered days (of life) will vanish away, and the present existence disappear. The garden of being will lose is freshness and fragrance, the orchard of mirth will miss its joy and beauty. The spring of life will change into the autumn of death, the joy of happiness of the palaces will change into the gloomy darkness of the grave. Therefore, it is not worth attachment and the wise person will not set his heart thereon. The wise and great man seeketh heavenly glory and divine might, desireth eternal life and seeketh nearness to the Threshold of God.

For in the tavern of the mortal world the bile of the man of God is not removed. He will not rest a moment here and will not stain himself with the attachments of the world."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v2, p. 379)





Regards,
Scott

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Does this document closely resemble the document you presented (in English translation)?

B.

The second document, unsigned and undated, is apparently in the Báb's handwriting and consists of a complete recantation and renunciation of any superhuman claim which he may have advanced or have appeared to advance. There is nothing to show to whom it is addressed, or whether it is the recantation referred to in the last paragraph of the preceding document or another. The handwriting, though graceful, is not easily legible, and the text appears to run as follows:

[fourteen lines of ARABIC TEXT]



[blank page]



IV.FIVE ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS257

[eight lines of ARABIC TEXT]

(Translation.)

"May my life be thy sacrifice! Praise be to God such as He deserves and merits, in that He hath caused the Manifestations of His Grace and Mercy under all circumstances to comprehend all of His servants. Praise be to God, and again praise, that He hath deigned to make one like your Excellency1 the source of His Clemency and Mercy, by the manifestation of whose kindness He hath pardoned His servants, cast a veil over sinners, and shown mercy to the transgressors. I take God to witness on His part that this weak servant never intended aught contrary to the good pleasure of the Lord of the World and the Company of Saints. Although my very existence is in itself utterly faulty, yet since my heart firmly believes in the unity of God (glorious in His mention), and the Prophethood of His Apostle, and the Saintship of the Community of Saints, and since my tongue acknowledgeth all

1 The title might equally be rendered "Highness," "Holiness," "Reverence," etc. according to the station of the person addressed.



[blank page]



258that hath been revealed on the part of God, I hope for His Mercy. Never have I desired aught contrary to the Will of God, and, if words contrary to His good pleasure have flowed from my pen, my object was not disobedience, and in any case I repent and ask forgiveness of Him. This servant has absolutely no knowledge connected with any claim. I ask forgiveness of God my Lord and I repent unto Him of that there should be ascribed to me any Mission. As for certain prayers and words which have flowed from my tongue, these do not imply any such Mission (amr), and any claim to any special vicegerency for His Holiness the Proof of God (on whom be Peace!) is a purely baseless claim, such as this servant has never put forward, nay, nor any claim like unto it. Therefore it is thus hoped from the clemency of His Imperial Majesty and of Your Excellency, that they will exalt the head of him who continually prays for them by the favours and graces of their clement and compassionate court. Farewell."

In this document He said He was not the Gate, He did not say, however, what He was. He remained mute on that, just as Jesus did.

Regards,

Scott

If this is not a recantation then what is. I have never seen any genuine representative of God seeking forgiveness and clarifying his position and denying it as the Bab did.

The Bahai Faith does not permit interpretation. So should one accept the words of the Bab in letter and in spirit?

Bab says that he was not the Bab after he had claimed to be so, and caused the blood of thousands to be shed. Who was responsible for that bloodshed. What about all those Babis who fought on behalf of the Bab. For what? For Bab to recant his claims - say sorry? Say I am not the Bab, you had me wrong. If he recanted his claim of being the Bab, why did he not claim outright that he was the 12th Imam - he should have.

The concept of the 12th Imam is an Islamic concept. One must read the Islamic traditions and not Bahai concepts to understand the meaning and importance of the concept to Islam. Islamic traditions say that the 12th Imam would never bow down to any government. He would be the government. Can't see it happening in the case of the Bab.

I am sorry.

Regards
Imran Shaykh

PS: Just a word for you. Both Juan Cole and the other lady (cant get her name) whose articles in the posts after this you have quoted are ex-Bahais. They were thrown out of the Faith - their voting rights snapped. Just thought I would let you know in case you did not know.

You still want me to accept their quotations?

[imranshaykh]

the name of the lady is Susan Maneck. Incidentally she ruffled quite a few feathers on her way out of the Bahai Faith!

Regards
Imran Shaykh

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Dear Irman,

Here is a question for you.

If, the court as seems to be the fact, offered the Bab His life in return for a recantation.
If indeed in the opinion of the Crown Prince of Persia and his court the Bab did indeed recant His claim.


Why was He executed?

This leads me to believe that the documents in question are largely forgeries, done after the fact to make the clerics and the politicians look good after they had committed an execution.

If I answer as a "true believer" and this attracts the derision of opponents to my faith, then those opponents must fear in their hearts that they are NOT true believers in their faith. Otherwise they would never scorn someone for belief.

By the way, I though you had agreed to not challenge the Baha`i Faith on the Baha`i board as the administrator demanded.

Regards,
Scott

My friend Scott:

Forgive me for saying so, but this is a highly irresponsible statement. If you believe that the documents are forgeries then prove so. Further to the administrator's mail, I have desisted from putting up links to my web site or offering any of my personal opinions and judgement even though I am as my earlier posts show quite opiniated.

It is not good to just give a personal view that the documents are forgeries because you want to believe they are forgeries.

Secondly, I cannot understand for the love of God why Bab agreed to a truce in exchange for his life when no other prophet or divine representatie ever did so. Prophets are not permitted to enter into truces for the religion they represent.

Lastly, I am not and I repeat, I am not challenging the Bahai Faith. I cannot help if you feel challenged by my questions.

These are the paths towards an independent seeking of the Truth. One must ask questions, question ideals and raise issues if one is to progress. Read all my posts, I am genuinely interested in the Bahai Faith. Yes, but I am not going to follow it blindly. I am going to do my research and if I have any questions I am going to ask them whether or not anybody likes them.

Those who are the followers of the Faith, its defenders must seek replies to my questions and guide me to the truth. Or be guided themselves.

In none of my posts have I invited you to Islam and to your credit niether have you called me to the Bahai Faith. I have only raised a few questions - based on references from original texts (so that no person can claim that I doctored the traslation) - from the poeple who hold the status of the being the founders of the new religion, Bab irself (so none can accuse me of bringing quotations from historians who were prejudiced).

But you know what?

I find that responses to my questions have been met with hostility. I am told that my references are not correct. Documents are forgeries and get responses that border on blind faith.

If you dont want me to ask questions. Tell me. I will stop. But this is not expected from an independent forum.

Regards
Imran Shaykh

[BruceDLimber]

In other words, Imran, you're rejecting the Bab because He didn't literally fulfill the prophecies and traditions, precisely as the Jews rejected Jesus because _He_ didn't literally fulfill the prophcies and traditions!

Small world! :-S

Bruce

[9Harmony]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

the name of the lady is Susan Maneck. Incidentally she ruffled quite a few feathers on her way out of the Bahai Faith!

Regards
Imran Shaykh

I think you are mistaken, Susan Maneck is still an active member of the Baha'i Faith.

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

In other words, Imran, you're rejecting the Bab because He didn't literally fulfill the prophecies and traditions, precisely as the Jews rejected Jesus because _He_ didn't literally fulfill the prophcies and traditions!

Small world! :-S

Bruce

Hi:

You are right in a sense. I dont know about the Jews and why they rejected Jesus. But I do know about Islam and that the Bahai Faith is pojected as the next progresion after Islam.

For my hereafter I must investigate the truth. And if found correct, I must accept however unpalatable it may be to me.

So my concern is about the Bab - the person who is widely known as the 12th Imam which all Muslims (including myself) are awaiting.

If he has come, then I must verify the veracity of his claim, his life and times. The Bahais must appreciate the psyche of people like us. I and poeple like me have spent my life awaiting the 12th Imam - we seek his blessings and seek our desires from him. We study his life and the conditions surrounding his birth and his occultation. We read traditions from the Holy Prophet about his appearance.

Then it is told to us the 12th Imam has appeared. We say, really? Where? When?

Then we study the life and times of the Bab and try and see if it matches what our prophet prophesized about the 12th Imam.

Traditions tell us that the 12th imam was born in 255 AH. He would be in occultation. But the Bab was "born". He did not "re-appear" as the traditions says.

Traditions tell us that the 12th Imam is Mohammed ibnul Hasan (MOhammed, the son of Hasan). But the Bab is Ali Mohammed and his father's name is definitely not Hasan.

Traditions tell us that the 12th Imam would establish justice and equality on this earth in his lifetime. But the Bab has come and gone. But there is no sign of justice and equality in his lifetime. On the contrary the Bahais are crying hoarse how the Bab was a victim of injustice.

Traditions tell us that the 12th Imam's advent would be followed by the Day of Judgement which is described in such great detail in the Quran. Where is that Day of Judgement. The Bahais say that it has come and gone. So what happened to all the punishment promised to disbelivers and the rewards for believers. If this is Qiyamat, I feel cheated for I tried to live my life as the prophet instructed me in hope of that reward.

Traditions tell us that the 12th Imam is from the progeny of the Holy Prophet. The Bab is not from the progeny of the prophet. Yes, he was called Sayyid, but as a title and not by lineage. His father was "Mirza" Bazzaz not Sayyid Bazzaz.

Traditions tell us that the 12th Imam would spread Islam throughout the world. But we find that the Bab's influence did not even go beyond the dominion of Iran. His book was in force all of 19 years, probably the shortest amongst any divine prophet or representative.

I could go on and on...but I will stop here.

I read from the Bab's writings that he recanted his claims - which no other prophet or divine representative ever did.

I read from the Bab's writings that he denied that he was the gate, he denied that he was the 12th Imam and moreso, he ackknowledged the 12th Imam by name at multiple places (read my earlier posts, I have provided you with references.) For the benefit of those in doubt, here is one more from Qayyamul Asma. This makes it my third reference.

"God, verily, hath decreed that this Book be divulged in interpretation (tafsīr) of the "Best of Narratives" on the part of Muhammad, the son of Hasan, the son of Ali, son of Muhammad, the son of Ali, the son of Mūsā, the son of Ja`far, the son of Muhammad, the son of `Alī, the son of Husayn, the son of `Alī ibn Abī Tālib unto His servant (The Bab) to the end that it might be an eloquent Proof of God from the Remembrance (al-dhikr) unto all the worlds."
Ref: Qayyamul Asam, Chapter of Mulk, verse 10

(I have the Arabic of this as well. Unfortunately I gather that most of you are unaware of these books and moreso the languages in which they were revealed.

Who is this Mohammed the son of Hasan?

All I ask is, pray tell me, by which tradition or prophecy is the Bab the 12th Imam.

If he is not the 12th Imam, then we must accept that the 12th Imam is awaited. Islam is yet to be abrogated. Traditions say that Islam will be completed upon the re-appearance of the 12th Imam which will be followed by the Day of Judgement.

Hence, I really do not care about the Jews and what they thought of Jesus. They will answer to their God.

I am concerned about Mohammed (The Prophet) and Mohammed (the 12th Imam). I must make my inquiries and satisfy myself that the Bab is the 12th Imam or not.

But as always, while signing off, please provide some documentary proof from the Bab that he was the 12th Imam, not from some historians and from Abul Baha and Shoghi who provide their personal viewpoints.

Regards
Imran Shaykh

[arthra]

Imran,

You've already acknowledged your hostility toward Baha'i Faith to me before so I'm nsure what it is you really hope to accomplish here?

Before launching into a series of all the prophecies you've heard about the Twelfth Imam... Let me suggest to you there are some underlying assumptions on your part that are not shared by Baha'is...

When we acknowledge that the Twelfth Imam disappeared we are not suggesting he vanished or was miraculously taken up...

We think he disappeared in the way that someone was perhaps abducted and probably martyred just as all the previous Imams were in one way or another.

So we don't shae your beliefs in that regard.

Secondly we don't share you view that the Twelfth Imam is to miraculously reappear as in your statement:

"Traditions tell us that the 12th imam was born in 255 AH. He would be in occultation. But the Bab was "born". He did not "re-appear" as the traditions says."

So I think you need to appreciate that..

Baha'is accept the Shiah version of Islam to a point, that is, that the Imams were the rightful successors of Prophet Muhammad but we don't accept the four 'Babs' who were supposed to be the mouthpieces of the Twelfth Imam during occultation, so this important for you to know.

The Bab came into the world through a natural process of birth and not through a miraculous event or reappearance as you believe.

I'm still not sure where you got the "Bazzaz" name as a family name for the Bab but it sounds to me that it is probably yet another antagonistic source.

Anyway... these are important areas I think for you to understand.

Our view is that the Bab nonetheless fulfilled the prophecy of the Return of the Twelfth Imam.

We have the same issue with Christians who believe the Return of Christ will be through the literal clouds...

Another point we should note is taht we are Baha'is not Babis.. so our view of the Bab is also from our perspective that He was a forerunner of Baha'u'llah and basically shook things up for Him Whom God would make manifest (Baha'u'llah)...

It is clearly we believe in Baha'u'llah's principles that the establishment of universal peace and justice can be found. I think earlier you suggested everybody today believes these principles so what does it matter? Or something like that...

Well I think it matters..

If Iran was a place where civil liberties were accepted, Baha'i students could enter higher education there..

It seems that if the Baha'i principles were accepted in Iran women could also find greater equality with men..

So I wouldn't brush off the principles of Baha'u'llah so easily as being widely accepted when ewveryone knows they are not...

- Art

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

If this is not a recantation then what is. I have never seen any genuine representative of God seeking forgiveness and clarifying his position and denying it as the Bab did.

The Bahai Faith does not permit interpretation. So should one accept the words of the Bab in letter and in spirit?

Bab says that he was not the Bab after he had claimed to be so, and caused the blood of thousands to be shed. Who was responsible for that bloodshed. What about all those Babis who fought on behalf of the Bab. For what? For Bab to recant his claims - say sorry? Say I am not the Bab, you had me wrong. If he recanted his claim of being the Bab, why did he not claim outright that he was the 12th Imam - he should have.

The concept of the 12th Imam is an Islamic concept. One must read the Islamic traditions and not Bahai concepts to understand the meaning and importance of the concept to Islam. Islamic traditions say that the 12th Imam would never bow down to any government. He would be the government. Can't see it happening in the case of the Bab.

I am sorry.

Regards
Imran Shaykh

PS: Just a word for you. Both Juan Cole and the other lady (cant get her name) whose articles in the posts after this you have quoted are ex-Bahais. They were thrown out of the Faith - their voting rights snapped. Just thought I would let you know in case you did not know.

You still want me to accept their quotations?

"Never have I desired aught contrary to the Will of God, and, if words contrary to His good pleasure have flowed from my pen, my object was not disobedience, and in any case I repent and ask forgiveness of Him. This servant has absolutely no knowledge connected with any claim. I ask forgiveness of God my Lord and I repent unto Him of that there should be ascribed to me any Mission. As for certain prayers and words which have flowed from my tongue, these do not imply any such Mission (amr), and any claim to any special vicegerency for His Holiness the Proof of God (on whom be Peace!) is a purely baseless claim, such as this servant has never put forward, nay, nor any claim like unto it."

Is a statement that He is not the gate to the 12th Imam. He in fact had claimed many times in His writings He was the Qa'im, Himself. He does not recant that in the trial at Tabriz, nor was He asked to recant such.

Professor Cole did indeed, withdraw from the faith. That was a personal choice. I still admire his scholarly work, and I hope he finds peace with himself. He has since reiterated his own personal identification as a Baha`i, but his name is not on the roles nor has he sought to placed his name on the roles of the faith. That is all his own choice. Being a Baha`i is a voluntary act, so is withdrawing from the faith. Apostasy, in the Islamic sense, is not an issue in the Baha`i Faith. Professor Cole never had his voting rights revoked, nor was he ever a covenant breaker (advancing his own interpretations and asserting their superiority over the interpretations of others).

Interpretation is very much allowed in the Baha`i Faith. Everyone must do it for himself, or follow the clear interpretations of Abd'ul Baha or Shoghi Effendi. Even the Universal House of Justice cannot interpret what is in the writings, it can only legislate on matters that are not in the writings.

One may have to read the Shi'ih commentary on the 12th Imam to understand the Islamic interpretations of that material; one does not have to hold it preferentially over the Baha`i interpretation of the material.

To a Baha`i, who has decided the authenticity of the Bab's and Baha`u'llah's claims, they have made the claim to be the Manifestation of God. That supersededs whatever Muslim pundits may have had to say on the matter.
I would point out that ALL the initial followers of the Bab were Muslims who made that decision, some made their decision upon seeing and hearing the Bab, some made their decisions on reading the writings of the Bab, some on visions and dreams.

Regards,
Scott

Sco

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

Imran,

You've already acknowledged your hostility toward Baha'i Faith to me before so I'm nsure what it is you really hope to accomplish here?

Before launching into a series of all the prophecies you've heard about the Twelfth Imam... Let me suggest to you there are some underlying assumptions on your part that are not shared by Baha'is...

When we acknowledge that the Twelfth Imam disappeared we are not suggesting he vanished or was miraculously taken up...

We think he disappeared in the way that someone was perhaps abducted and probably martyred just as all the previous Imams were in one way or another.

So we don't shae your beliefs in that regard.

Secondly we don't share you view that the Twelfth Imam is to miraculously reappear as in your statement:

"Traditions tell us that the 12th imam was born in 255 AH. He would be in occultation. But the Bab was "born". He did not "re-appear" as the traditions says."

So I think you need to appreciate that..

Baha'is accept the Shiah version of Islam to a point, that is, that the Imams were the rightful successors of Prophet Muhammad but we don't accept the four 'Babs' who were supposed to be the mouthpieces of the Twelfth Imam during occultation, so this important for you to know.

The Bab came into the world through a natural process of birth and not through a miraculous event or reappearance as you believe.

I'm still not sure where you got the "Bazzaz" name as a family name for the Bab but it sounds to me that it is probably yet another antagonistic source.

Anyway... these are important areas I think for you to understand.

Our view is that the Bab nonetheless fulfilled the prophecy of the Return of the Twelfth Imam.

We have the same issue with Christians who believe the Return of Christ will be through the literal clouds...

Another point we should note is taht we are Baha'is not Babis.. so our view of the Bab is also from our perspective that He was a forerunner of Baha'u'llah and basically shook things up for Him Whom God would make manifest (Baha'u'llah)...

It is clearly we believe in Baha'u'llah's principles that the establishment of universal peace and justice can be found. I think earlier you suggested everybody today believes these principles so what does it matter? Or something like that...

Well I think it matters..

If Iran was a place where civil liberties were accepted, Baha'i students could enter higher education there..

It seems that if the Baha'i principles were accepted in Iran women could also find greater equality with men..

So I wouldn't brush off the principles of Baha'u'llah so easily as being widely accepted when ewveryone knows they are not...

- Art

Finally, you accept that Bab is the fulfilment of the prophecies of the 12th Imam. But whose prophecies? Who prophesised about the 12th Imam. If your belief is that he is the fulfilment of some prophecies, pray tell me, which prophecy.

How can you discount that the prophecies about the 12th Imam came from Islamic sources much much before the Bab or Bahaullah.

The belief in the 12th Imam is an Islamic concept. So how can the Babi and the Bahai sources supercede the Islamic sources in this regard.

The word prophecy itself means that one must foretell about the future. So obviously someone before Bab and Bahaullah should have spoken about the 12th Imam. And that prophecy woul have been fulfilled by Bab. Is that understanding correct?

Pray, tell me, which is the prophecy you are referring to so that I may be guided by it.

Regards
Imran Shaykh

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Hi:


If he has come, then I must verify the veracity of his claim, his life and times. The Bahais must appreciate the psyche of people like us. I and poeple like me have spent my life awaiting the 12th Imam - we seek his blessings and seek our desires from him. We study his life and the conditions surrounding his birth and his occultation. We read traditions from the Holy Prophet about his appearance.

Then it is told to us the 12th Imam has appeared. We say, really? Where? When?

Then we study the life and times of the Bab and try and see if it matches what our prophet prophesized about the 12th Imam.

Traditions tell us that the 12th imam was born in 255 AH. He would be in occultation. But the Bab was "born". He did not "re-appear" as the traditions says.

Traditions tell us that the 12th Imam is Mohammed ibnul Hasan (MOhammed, the son of Hasan). But the Bab is Ali Mohammed and his father's name is definitely not Hasan.

Traditions tell us that the 12th Imam would establish justice and equality on this earth in his lifetime. But the Bab has come and gone. But there is no sign of justice and equality in his lifetime. On the contrary the Bahais are crying hoarse how the Bab was a victim of injustice.

In Reply:
Dear Imran,

The Jewish priests insisted that Jesus, if He was not born of the seed of Joseph, could not be considered the Moissach. Christians and Muslims say that Jesus was born of the will of God - the "word of command: Be!" Mary's lineage is of no importance in considering whether or not her son might be of the "House of David". So, Jesus did not fulfill the requirements of the priests as they insisted those requirements must be. How is this to be resolved? One must either forswear Christianity and Islam and become a Jew or one must judge that the Jewish priests were wrong.

In this instance Shi'ih Islam's authoritative clergy (with the exception of Siyyid Kazim) were wrong, by my estimation of the import of the declaration of the Bab and the declaration of Baha`u'llah.

In other words those who INSIST that the 12th Imam must come according to their opinion and to their personal requirements are wrong, at least to those who are followers of Baha`u'llah.

It is not according to the will of God that a man may live a thousand years in hiding and appear in the same body that was born a thousand years before. All understanding of science and human qualities says no. To cling to that reality in the face of knowledge that it is wrong is superstition, as Baha`u'llah defines it. These are truths in my estimation, and in no way am I saying you must change your own opinion to match mine. To me that would be a sin before God, it would be voiding Muhammed's command that there must be no compulsion in religion.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Traditions tell us that the 12th Imam's advent would be followed by the Day of Judgement which is described in such great detail in the Quran. Where is that Day of Judgement. The Bahais say that it has come and gone. So what happened to all the punishment promised to disbelivers and the rewards for believers. If this is Qiyamat, I feel cheated for I tried to live my life as the prophet instructed me in hope of that reward..

"4. Praise be to Him Who hath made the world of being, and hath fashioned all that is, Him Who hath raised up the sincere to a station of honour [1] and hath made the invisible world to appear on the plane of the visible -- yet still, in their drunken stupor,[2] do men wander and stray.
[1 Qur'án 17:81]
[2 Qur'án 15:72]
He hath laid down the foundations of the lofty Citadel, He hath inaugurated the Cycle of Glory, He hath brought forth a new creation on this day that is clearly Judgement Day -- and still do the heedless stay fast in their drunken sleep.
The Bugle [1] hath sounded, the Trumpet [2] hath been blown, the Crier hath raised his call, and all upon the earth have swooned away -- but still do the dead, in the tombs of their bodies, sleep on.
[1 Qur'án 39:68; Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 133]
[2 Qur'án 74:8] 14
And the second clarion [1] hath sounded, there hath followed the second blast after the first,[2] and the dread woe hath come, and every nursing mother hath forgot the infant at her breast [3] -- yet still the people, confused and distracted, heed it not.
[1 Qur'án 39:68]
[2 Qur'án 79:6]
[3 Qur'án 22:2]
And the Resurrection hath dawned, and the Hour hath struck, and the Path hath been drawn straight, and the Balance hath been set up, and all upon the earth have been gathered together [1] -- but still the people see no sign of the way.
[1 Qur'án 34:39]
The light hath shone forth, and radiance floodeth Mount Sinai, and a gentle wind bloweth from over the gardens of the Ever-Forgiving Lord; the sweet breaths of the spirit are passing by, and those who lay buried in the grave are rising up -- and still do the heedless slumber on in their tombs."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 13)
"The people aforetime joined partners with God, though they professed belief in His unity; and although they were the most ignorant amongst men, they considered themselves the most accomplished. But, as a token of divine retribution upon those heedless ones, their erroneous beliefs and pursuits have, in this Day of Judgement, been made clear and evident to every man of discernment and understanding.
Beseech thou God, the True One, that He may graciously shield the followers of this Revelation from the idle fancies and corrupt imaginings of such as belong to the former Faith, and may not deprive them of the effulgent splendours of the day-star of true unity."
(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 124)

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Traditions tell us that the 12th Imam is from the progeny of the Holy Prophet. The Bab is not from the progeny of the prophet. Yes, he was called Sayyid, but as a title and not by lineage. His father was "Mirza" Bazzaz not Sayyid Bazzaz..

The Bab's father was not Mirza Bazzaz.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Traditions tell us that the 12th Imam would spread Islam throughout the world. But we find that the Bab's influence did not even go beyond the dominion of Iran. His book was in force all of 19 years, probably the shortest amongst any divine prophet or representative.

People all over the world have come to revere Muhammed and the Qur'an when they became Baha`i, not having done so before. In fact many had thought Muhammed was a false prophet before embracing the words and teachings of Baha`u'llah.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

I read from the Bab's writings that he recanted his claims - which no other prophet or divine representative ever did.

I read from the Bab's writings that he denied that he was the gate, he denied that he was the 12th Imam and moreso, he ackknowledged the 12th Imam by name at multiple places (read my earlier posts, I have provided you with references.) For the benefit of those in doubt, here is one more from Qayyamul Asma. This makes it my third reference.

"God, verily, hath decreed that this Book be divulged in interpretation (tafsīr) of the "Best of Narratives" on the part of Muhammad, the son of Hasan, the son of Ali, son of Muhammad, the son of Ali, the son of Mūsā, the son of Ja`far, the son of Muhammad, the son of `Alī, the son of Husayn, the son of `Alī ibn Abī Tālib unto His servant (The Bab) to the end that it might be an eloquent Proof of God from the Remembrance (al-dhikr) unto all the worlds."
Ref: Qayyamul Asam, Chapter of Mulk, verse 10

(I have the Arabic of this as well. Unfortunately I gather that most of you are unaware of these books and moreso the languages in which they were revealed.

Who is this Mohammed the son of Hasan?

All I ask is, pray tell me, by which tradition or prophecy is the Bab the 12th Imam..

By the same measure that Jesus Christ was Messiah.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

If he is not the 12th Imam, then we must accept that the 12th Imam is awaited. Islam is yet to be abrogated. Traditions say that Islam will be completed upon the re-appearance of the 12th Imam which will be followed by the Day of Judgement.

The Day of Judgement has come - by my estimation TWICE since Muhammed's ascension.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Hence, I really do not care about the Jews and what they thought of Jesus. They will answer to their God.

That is true of us all.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

I am concerned about Mohammed (The Prophet) and Mohammed (the 12th Imam). I must make my inquiries and satisfy myself that the Bab is the 12th Imam or not.

But as always, while signing off, please provide some documentary proof from the Bab that he was the 12th Imam, not from some historians and from Abul Baha and Shoghi who provide their personal viewpoints.

Regards
Imran Shaykh

What proof is there that Muhammed was the Apostle of God, other than His own words?

Regards,
Scott

[imranshaykh]

My friend,

Again, you fail to reply who was the Mohammed Al Hujjat Al Aqem Ibnil Hasan who the Bab speaks about with such reverence.

The traditions I bring are not from Muslim clergy, they are from Holy Prophet and the honoured Imams - there is a difference. A BIG difference. Not accepting their traditions is equivalent to falsifying them.

I have answered this question about Prophet of Islam and the proof earlier. The Quran is the proof of Mohammed. However it is the final and everlasting proof - not the only proof of Mohammed's claims.

There are more than 1,000 miracles which are meticulously recorded in history ascribed to Mohammed - some of which are recorded in the Quran. There are miracles ascribed to Jesus, to Noah, to Moses....to ALL prophets, apart from the scriptures they brought. These are recorded not just in their own books but also in the books that followed them. Hence the miracles are beyond doubt. And that is testimony to the truth of Mohammed.

Here is where I will divert from my original question about Mohammed Hujjat Ibnil Hasan, though it is only to strengthen my argument that the Bab never had any miracle.

Read the incident about the questioning of the Bab at Tabriz. He was asked to produce a miracle like Moses. He declines. Why? He should have brought a small miracle, something that would have out of the purview of any mortal. But he did'nt.

Regarding the Day of Judgement, you have conveniently ommitted those verses which describe the punishments on the Day of Judgement and the rewards thereof. You have chosen only to take the literal meaning of the verse which suit your purpose. Do you have any comment on those verses? Is there any Bahai allusion to the Fire of Hell or the Houries of Paradise in this world?

Regards
Imran Shaykh

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

My friend,

Again, you fail to reply who was the Mohammed Al Hujjat Al Aqem Ibnil Hasan who the Bab speaks about with such reverence.

The traditions I bring are not from Muslim clergy, they are from Holy Prophet and the honoured Imams - there is a difference. A BIG difference. Not accepting their traditions is equivalent to falsifying them.

I have answered this question about Prophet of Islam and the proof earlier. The Quran is the proof of Mohammed. However it is the final and everlasting proof - not the only proof of Mohammed's claims.

Exactly and the proof of Baha`u'llah and the Bab is Their words.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

There are more than 1,000 miracles which are meticulously recorded in history ascribed to Mohammed - some of which are recorded in the Quran. There are miracles ascribed to Jesus, to Noah, to Moses....to ALL prophets, apart from the scriptures they brought. These are recorded not just in their own books but also in the books that followed them. Hence the miracles are beyond doubt. And that is testimony to the truth of Mohammed.

From the Bab's words:
'Likewise the people of the Qur'án disdainfully observe, 'We are unable to comprehend the eloquence of the verses in the Bayan, how can we regard it as a testimony?' Whoever uttereth such words, say unto him, 'O thou untutored one! By what proof hast thou embraced the Religion of Islam? Is it the Prophet on whom thou hast never set eyes? Is it the miracles which thou hast never witnessed? If thou hast accepted Islam unwittingly, wherefore hast thou done so? But if thou hast embraced the Faith by recognizing the Qur'án as the testimony, because thou hast heard the learned and the faithful express their powerlessness before it, or if thou hast, upon hearing the divine verses and by virtue of thy spontaneous love for the True Word of God, responded in a spirit of utter humility and lowliness -- a spirit which is one of the mightiest signs of true love and understanding -- then such proofs have been and will ever be regarded as sound.' "121 "
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 120)

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Here is where I will divert from my original question about Mohammed Hujjat Ibnil Hasan, though it is only to strengthen my argument that the Bab never had any miracle.

Bearing in mind that miracles prove nothing to those who do not witness them, I would offer off the top of my head three miracles of the Bab.

The miracle witnessed to by His guard while imprisoned in Esfahan:
A cholera outbreak was swift and widespread and many were taken ill and died quickly. The head of the Bab's guard had a son who was severely ill, he begged the Bab to cure his son. The Bab washed His face in a basin and gave the water to the guard telling him to give it to his son to drink. He did and the son recovered. This is enumerated in "Dawnbreakers"

The miracle witnessed to by the Warden of the prison of Mahku:
The warden had given strict orders that the bab was not to be released from His cell, nor was He to have any visitors. The next morning the warde rode his horse to the prison and was surprised to find the Bab kneeling by the stream, obviously engrossed in morning prayers. The warden severely reprimanded his guards who were shocked at the accusation. They took the warden to the Bab's cell and when the door was opened the Bab was inside finishing His prayers.

The miracle witnessed by many at the execution of the Bab:
Where He was ordered to leave His cell before He was finished dictating a letter to His secretary. The Bab said that no man or any purpose could bring harm to Him before He was finished with His task. He was taken outside suspended on a rope and when the hundreds of muskets fired and the smoke cleared He was nowhere to be seen. A musket ball had cut the rope and dropped Him to His feet. After nearly an hour of frantic search while the crowd was nearly hysterical, the Bab was found in His cell finishing His dictation to His secretary. He rose and said the guards could go on with their purpose as He had finished His task. The next volley (the first battalion that had fired refused to fire a second time) killed the Bab and the follower roped to Him for the firing squad. There is European, non-Muslim and non-Baha`i testimony to these events. It is enumerated in Dawnbreakers.

Again please note that miracles mean nothing to those who do not witness them. And neither you nor I have ever witnessed a miracle of Muhammed.

Also what is or is not a miracle to one man is meaningless to another.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Read the incident about the questioning of the Bab at Tabriz. He was asked to produce a miracle like Moses. He declines. Why? He should have brought a small miracle, something that would have out of the purview of any mortal. But he did'nt.

I would point out an incident from the life of Baha`u'llah:
"Even the Persian 'ulama who were at Karbila and Najaf chose a wise man whom they sent on a mission to Him; his name was Mulla Hasan 'Amu. He came into the Holy Presence, and proposed a number of questions on behalf of the 'ulama, to which Bahá'u'lláh replied. Then Hasan 'Amu said, "The 'ulama recognize without hesitation and confess the knowledge and virtue of Bahá'u'lláh, and they are unanimously convinced that in all learning he has no peer or equal; and it is also evident that he has never studied or acquired this learning; but still the 'ulama say, 'We are not contented with this; we do not acknowledge the reality of his mission by virtue of his wisdom and righteousness. Therefore, we ask him to show us a miracle in order to satisfy and tranquilize our hearts.'"
Bahá'u'lláh replied, "Although you have no right to ask this, for God should test His creatures, and they should not test God, still I allow and accept this request. But the Cause of God is not a theatrical display that is presented every hour, of which some new diversion may be asked for every day. If it were thus, the Cause of God would become mere child's play.
"The ulamas must, therefore, assemble, and, with one accord, choose one miracle, and write that, after the performance of this miracle they will no longer entertain doubts about Me, and that all will acknowledge and confess the truth of My Cause. Let them seal this paper, and bring it to Me. This must be the accepted criterion: if the miracle is performed, no doubt will remain for them; and if not, We shall be convicted of imposture." The learned man, Hasan 'Amu, rose and replied, "There is no more to be said"; he then kissed the knee of the Blessed One although he was not a believer, and went. He gathered the 'ulama and gave them the sacred message. They consulted together and said, "This man is an enchanter; perhaps he will perform an enchantment, and then we shall have nothing more to say." Acting on this belief, they did not dare to push the matter further.[1]
[1 The penetrating judgment of Bahá'u'lláh upon this occasion overcame the malignity of His enemies, who, it was certain, would never agree in choosing what miracle to ask for.]
This man, Hasan 'Amu, mentioned this fact at many meetings. After leaving Karbila he went to Kirmanshah and Tihran and spread a detailed account of it everywhere, laying emphasis on the fear and the withdrawal of the 'ulama.
Briefly, all His adversaries in the Orient acknowledged His greatness, grandeur, knowledge and virtue; and though they were His enemies, they always spoke of Him as "the renowned Bahá'u'lláh.""
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 29)

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Regarding the Day of Judgement, you have conveniently ommitted those verses which describe the punishments on the Day of Judgement and the rewards thereof. You have chosen only to take the literal meaning of the verse which suit your purpose. Do you have any comment on those verses? Is there any Bahai allusion to the Fire of Hell or the Houries of Paradise in this world?

One of my favorite texts bythe Bab, I went and cut and pasted it though I can do it by memory. I want it to be absolutely accurate:
"WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God's creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men.
Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.
Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God's good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God's favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 77)

And from Baha`u'llah:
"Thou canst indeed hear the learned and the foolish amongst the people voice the same objections in this day, saying: "The sun hath not risen from the West, nor hath the Crier cried out betwixt earth and heaven. Water hath not inundated certain lands; the Dajjal 17 hath not appeared; Sufyani 18 hath not arisen; nor hath the Temple been witnessed in the sun." I heard, with Mine own ears, one of their divines proclaim: "Should all these signs come to pass and the long-awaited Qá'im appear, and should He ordain, with respect to even our secondary laws, aught beyond that which hath been revealed in the Qur'án, we would assuredly charge Him with imposture, put Him to death, and refuse forever to acknowledge Him", and other statements such as these deniers make. And all this, when the Day of Resurrection hath been ushered in, and the Trumpet hath been sounded, and all the denizens of earth and heaven have been gathered together, and the Balance hath 20 been appointed, and the Bridge hath been laid, and the Verses have been sent down, and the Sun hath shone forth, and the stars have been blotted out, and the souls have been raised to life, and the breath of the Spirit hath blown, and the angels have been arrayed in ranks, and Paradise hath been brought nigh, and Hell made to blaze! These things have all come to pass, and yet to this day not a single one of these people hath recognized them! They all lie as dead within their own shrouds, save those who have believed and repaired unto God, who rejoice in this day in His celestial paradise, and who tread the path of His good-pleasure."
(Baha'u'llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 19)

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Regards
Imran Shaykh

We are both men trying to be submissive before God, perhaps we should embrace that and not embrace our differences in choices.

And my regards to you,

Scott

[Popeyesays]

Susan Maneck and I are good friends ( of the digital sort) we have never actually met. She is a Baha`i in good standing in her community and a regular contributor to Baha`i Studies and Baha`i scholarship. She had questions and directed them to the House of Justice as she is supposed to do, her membership was never in jeopardy nor did she ever her administrative rights revoked, nor did she ever withdraw from the Faith. I have her e-mail address for any who have acquaintance with her, though I will ask in advance if Susan wants to extend her address to anyone.

Regards,
Scott

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Those who are the followers of the Faith, its defenders must seek replies to my questions and guide me to the truth. Or be guided themselves.

False choices. There is no inherent way to convince anyone of anything. Logic has a certain amount of reach, and other things can be convincing to some and not others. Even more, being taught the truth is no guarantee that it will be recieved. We each get to decide, for ourselves, what we beleive. We are each alone responsible for that state of being. At best we may share in the adventure. If the truth makes it into our lives, Praise God!

At times we must leave the dust behind.