misleading info on books/websites

[Postmaster]

BruceDLimber Brian has the controls I'm just a powerless member

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

When man-made ceremony becomes enshrined it can become "dogma" in the bad sense of the word. There is not much chance for that in the Baha`i dispensation.
Regards,
Scott

But ceremony isn't dogma - ceremony is ceremony.

Dogma is the institution upon which organised belief rests upon:

Definitions: Dogma

of which the first part of the statement you quote simply indicates:

A dogma is a principle, tenet or teaching, especially an authoritative teaching, and in these senses it is apparent that the Faith has 'dogmas'.

To mention ceremony seems to muddy the question.

As for adding graphics - that's something I can certainly look at - be prepared for changes soon, hopefully.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

But ceremony isn't dogma - ceremony is ceremony.

Dogma is the institution upon which organised belief rests upon:

Definitions: Dogma

of which the first part of the statement you quote simply indicates:



To mention ceremony seems to muddy the question.

As for adding graphics - that's something I can certainly look at - be prepared for changes soon, hopefully.

Well, let's look at baptism for instance. How many branches of Christianity are divided by the ceremony of baptism?

What is the ceremony described in the Gospel?

Is there one and only ONE proper ceremony - the issue becomes dogma, and dogma divides the branches of Christianity.

I pulled this particular example of the top of my head, not because I wish to discuss dogma in Christianity in particular.

Regards,
Scott

[Postmaster]

Well I'm going to come out with something, I had a dream I was in a white palace with many people and I walked into a small room where I found a black book in the middle, I went up to the book and picked it up when I left with it at that point I realised I was holding the holy writings of the Baha'i faith, then I woke up. Early this year I spent a lot of time here trying to discredit the faith after experiences similar phenomenon but after that dream I started reading more material online of the faith and again I could smell an unexplainable scent of roses.

Romany gypsies are known for there sixth sense and seems the Baha’i faith has even reached that community.

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Well I'm going to come out with something, I had a dream I was in a white palace with many people and I walked into a small room where I found a black book in the middle, I went up to the book and picked it up when I left with it at that point I realised I was holding the holy writings of the Baha'i faith, then I woke up. Early this year I spent a lot of time here trying to discredit the faith after experiences similar phenomenon but after that dream I started reading more material online of the faith and again I could smell an unexplainable scent of roses.

Romany gypsies are known for there sixth sense and seems the Baha’i faith has even reached that community.

Thanks for sharing your dreams again Postmaster! It's been a few months I think when we heard about that.

How have you been by the way?

One aspect of your dream that we had discussed earlier as I recall was that Baha'u'llah had been associated with roses and they were very plentiful in the Ridvan Garden when He made His declaration.

Another aspect of this is that the early believers were led to their Faith through dreams and spiritual experiences.

Today is the anniversary of the Birth of the Bab by the way and a Holy Day for Baha'is..

Praise is due to God.

- Art

[arthra]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Ah, yes - but then, the Baha'i faith has it's own dogma, and therefore the situation simply ends up as one religious dogma dictating to other religious dogmas.

I noted your definition of dogma and the list you supplied top-most including:

a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof
* a doctrine or code of beliefs accepted as authoritative; "he believed all the Marxist dogma"

As the Administrator of this forum and being involved in a lot of these discussions now and with us Baha'is, I was wondering how you personally regard the religions on this forum ..Maybe share what your own convictions are. But perhaps you'd rather not. It's your choice to respond to that.

But I would suggest Baha'is would respond to that above definition of "dogma" that each person must seek the truth for themselves or be involved in what we call the independent investigation of reality. We are not to simply accept a belief because say our family accepts it or because of an authority figure dictates it. So the emphasis to us in the area of belief is on personal search and acceptance rather than dictation.

Along with this personal search for truth is a principle called "consultation" where we consult on matters and attempt to arrive at "truth" or guidance for a particular sitiation.

- Art

[Postmaster]

Another aspect of this is that the early believers were led to their Faith through dreams and spiritual experiences.

I've been good thanks arthra, how about you? I've had about 3 / 4 phenomenon’s (experiences) connected to the Baha'i faith yet I'm not 100% accepting, yet I feel it's conquered me. Obviously coming from a Christian Orthodox community upbringing in the UK family and friends would consider me a nut, I even asked the question to myself. But you know recently even my parents have loosened up there ideas a lot. I've told my mum about my experiences and she's ok with them. She’s intrigued about how the Magi Zoroastrian priests came to visit Christ when he was born as they had prophesies of the event.

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

But ceremony isn't dogma - ceremony is ceremony.

Now that doesn't seem to hold water from how I've seen every religion do it's thing. Ceremony isn't ceremony! Priests are justified as the only proper means of accomplishing various Rites as it were, no? These are not presented as mere play! They are the Path of Salvation it is claimed!

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

coming from a Christian Orthodox community upbringing in the UK family and friends would consider me a nut

PM

I came from a strict roman catholic background and made the difficult transition to Buddhism, my family were surprised but they understand.

As such, I think I may only ever have one real piece of wisdom to offer in this life, and this is it.

Believe what you believe, openly and honestly, be true to yourself and to those who love you.

Peace.
AT5.


(My grandmother keeps on telling me she'll pray for me.)

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings! :-)

>People have asked for justification for the Baha`i's claim to validity of its Messenger and Message....

No problem!

The primary proof (which serves as justification is Baha'u'llah's exemplary life itself, along with the hundred volumes of His Writings, which now constitute roughly half of the Baha'i scriptures! The teachings in these scriptures clearly have as their goal the fostering of unity, love, peace, and concord among humanity and among the nations. So in this respect these are the "fruits" of the Baha'i Faith, and Christ's "By their fruits ye shall know them" applies along with the specific fruits listed in Galatians. And there is also the Biblical assurance that "a bad tree cannot yield good fruit" and vice versa!

In addition to these, the Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfilled many, many prophecies in the Tanach (Jewish scriptures), New Testament, and elsewhere! So these offer considerable additional proof that They are who They say They are!

All this is covered in more detail at such web sites as:

www.bahai-faith.org

and

http://bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled

My regards! :-)

Bruce

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

B>Ah, yes - but then, the Baha'i faith has it's own dogma, and therefore the situation simply ends up as one religious dogma dictating to other religious dogmas.

Please note that we "dictate" to no one!

But that said, I would then humbly suggest that the key is to EXAMINE the claims and teachings of each religion, determine where the truth lies, and follow that!

(Simply what we advise everyone to do, anyway . . .)

Regards,

Bruce

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

BruceDLimber Brian has the controls I'm just a powerless member

If you believe THAT, then I have a bridge for sale! :-S

Bruce

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Well I'm going to come out with something, I had a dream I was in a white palace with many people and I walked into a small room where I found a black book in the middle, I went up to the book and picked it up when I left with it at that point I realised I was holding the holy writings of the Baha'i faith, then I woke up. Early this year I spent a lot of time here trying to discredit the faith after experiences similar phenomenon but after that dream I started reading more material online of the faith and again I could smell an unexplainable scent of roses.

Romany gypsies are known for there sixth sense and seems the Baha’i faith has even reached that community.

Greetings, Postmaster (and thanks for the steer)! :-)

Your dream is most fascinating, but contains one probable error:

The Baha'i scriptures number fully 200 volumes, so it would have to be an awfully big book to hold them all! :-)

But I'm extremely glad you're investigating now, and I wish you all the best, and good hunting! :-)

BTW, I'll take the liberty of sending you my overview as it includes a list of web sites that you might find helpful. You can keep it or not as you like. (Please note, too, that you can get free literature from the Baha'is by calling 1-800-22-UNITE; the folks there can also put you in touch with a nearby Baha'i community, if you like.)

As to the Gypsies, you're certainly right! I sing in the Voices of Baha international touring choir, and a few years ago we did a tour across central Europe (London to Moscow). When we preformed in Hungary, there were several hundred Gypsy Baha'is who drove about 200 miles to attend our concert (over roads that were doubtless nowhere near the best). A wonderful time was had by all, and after the concert we and they were outside dancing together in the street! :-)

And I'll join in wishing you a happy holy day! :-)

Best,

Bruce

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Greetings, Postmaster (and thanks for the steer)! :-)

Your dream is most fascinating, but contains one probable error:

The Baha'i scriptures number fully 200 volumes, so it would have to be an awfully big book to hold them all! :-)

But I'm extremely glad you're investigating now, and I wish you all the best, and good hunting! :-)

BTW, I'll take the liberty of sending you my overview as it includes a list of web sites that you might find helpful. You can keep it or not as you like. (Please note, too, that you can get free literature from the Baha'is by calling 1-800-22-UNITE; the folks there can also put you in touch with a nearby Baha'i community, if you like.)

As to the Gypsies, you're certainly right! I sing in the Voices of Baha international touring choir, and a few years ago we did a tour across central Europe (London to Moscow). When we preformed in Hungary, there were several hundred Gypsy Baha'is who drove about 200 miles to attend our concert (over roads that were doubtless nowhere near the best). A wonderful time was had by all, and after the concert we and they were outside dancing together in the street! :-)

And I'll join in wishing you a happy holy day! :-)

Best,

Bruce

Dear Postmaster,

Dreams have only one language, the language of symbolism. And to see all the writings of Baha`u'llah as a single book is certainly within the grammar of that language.
I was led to the faith by a dream. However, dreams speak to individuals not to everyone.
Are you familiar with Thomas Breakwell, the first British believer?

Mr. Breakwell was in poor health and he passed away quite young. Abd'ul Baha eulogized him thusly:
Grieve thou not over the ascension of my beloved Breakwell, for he hath risen unto a rose garden of splendours within the Abha Paradise, sheltered by the mercy of his mighty Lord, and he is crying at the top of his voice: 'O that my people could know how graciously my Lord hath forgiven me, and made me to be of those who have attained His Presence!'[1]
[1 cf. Qur'án 36:25 ]
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
Where now is thy fair face?
Where is thy fluent tongue?
Where thy clear brow?
Where thy bright comeliness?
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
Where is thy fire, blazing with God's love?
Where is thy rapture at His holy breaths?
Where are thy praises, lifted unto Him?
Where is thy rising up to serve His Cause?
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
Where are thy beauteous eyes?
Thy smiling lips?
The princely cheek?
The graceful form?
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
Thou hast quit this earthly world and risen upward 188
to the Kingdom, thou hast reached unto the grace of the invisible realm,
and offered thyself at
the threshold of its Lord.
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
Thou hast left the lamp
that was thy body here,
the glass that was thy human form,
thy earthy elements,
thy way of life below.
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
Thou hast lit a flame within the lamp of the Company on high,
thou hast set foot in the Abha Paradise,
thou hast found a shelter in the shadow of the Blessed Tree,
thou hast attained His meeting in the haven of Heaven.
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
Thou art now a bird of Heaven,
thou hast quit thine earthly nest,
and soared away to a garden of holiness in the kingdom of thy Lord.
Thou hast risen to a station filled with light.
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
Thy song is even as birdsong now,
thou pourest forth verses as to the mercy of thy Lord;
of Him Who forgiveth ever,
thou wert a thankful servant,
wherefore hast thou entered into exceeding bliss.
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
Thy Lord hath verily singled thee out for His love,
and hath led thee into His precincts of holiness,
and made thee to enter the garden of those who are His close companions,
and hath blessed thee with beholding His beauty. 189
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
Thou hast won eternal life,
and the bounty that faileth never,
and a life to please thee well,
and plenteous grace.
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
Thou art become a star in the supernal sky,
and a lamp amid the angels of high Heaven;
a living spirit in the most exalted Kingdom,
throned in eternity.
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
I ask of God to draw thee ever closer,
hold thee everfaster;
to rejoice thy heart with nearness to His presence,
to fill thee with light and still more light,
to grant thee still more beauty,
and to bestow upon thee power and reat glory.
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
At all times do I call thee to mind.
I shall never forget thee.
I pray for thee by day, by night;
I see thee plain before me,
as if in open day.
O Breakwell, O my dear one!
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 187)

You can read some basic material on him at:
http://bahai-library.com/essays/breakwell.html

Regards,
Scott

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

She’s intrigued about how the Magi Zoroastrian priests came to visit Christ when he was born as they had prophesies of the event.

Don't forget the earlier connections - Abraham's third wife, Keturah, goes to the land from which Zoroastrianism later arrived. Then during the period of Diaspora in Babylon the Zoroastrian and Persian King Cyrus the Great was lead by the right hand by God according to the Old Testament. Then in Moses' day it was among the Zoroastrians that he took refuge from Egypt and married. Last in this series is as you observed that they found the babe Jesus.