Modesty

[seattlegal]

I work with Muslim men and men from India at one of my jobs. (I'm the only woman who works there, and they can be quite protective of me.)

One sunny but cold autumn day, I needed to stop off at work to pick up a few things during my off time. Since it was unseasonably cold, I wore a polar fleece sweater with the hood pulled up over my head under my long trenchcoat to keep warm.

When I walked in to work, the men seemed skittish and gave me a wide berth while I was collecting the things I needed. I noticed this, so I approached one of them after I got the items I needed and started chatting. He got a strange look on his face, and then said, "It's cold outside, isn't it?"
I smiled and answered, "I'm freezing my butt off!"
When I said, this, all the men visibly relaxed. When I realized that they thought I was upset by the way that I was dressed, I added, "It might be cold, but it's sunny."
The men all started smiling when I said that.
It's interesting how these things work.

[Netti-Netti]

Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised

~Proverbs 31:30

The appearance of modesty could actually be a form of self-enhancement. It's a way of projecting something about the woman that makes them more desirable to men who pick up on the social cue.

Originally Posted by seattlegal

It's all the more rude and intrusive when clothing type is forced.

For a Westerner to confront Muslim women on their choice of clothes is a form of psychological coercion.

I wonder about the extent to which it is forced in Muslim countries. Wasn't there a survey that showed the majority of modern Muslim men believe women should exercise their own judgment about the clothes they wear?

[lunamoth]

I dress modestly but not for any religious or esp. 'Biblical' reasons. I dress modestly because that is who I am and the image I wish to project. I think the female body is beautiful and certainly nothing to be ashamed of. It's fine to wear a string bikini at the beach or go nude at a nude beach, if that is part of the culture. But, to wear see-through blouses or crotch-revealing mini-skirts or shorts around town I think projects an image of sexuality on display for the purpose of either 1) inviting sex or 2) a power play. I do not think it should ever invite violence or touching, but don't then get angry if men stare, ask you out, and think of you as a sex object.

How many men really would like their wives to wear skin-tight and highly revealing clothes in public? I think that says a lot about the line on our standards of modesty.

Basically I think that modesty is culturally set and that is just fine. It is silly to try to apply the cultural norms of the Bible to today.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Again, there is nothing "Islamic" about head covering and I assume you have no survey results to show that Muslim women are making a religious connection.

Almost all of the Muslim women I have spoken to in the U.S. who choose to wear hijab have said they do so for religious reasons. These may be interpretive reasons (i.e., that hijab is not the only proper interpretation of the Quran verses on modesty, but rather it is a culturally acceptable and readily available way to physically interpret those verses). However, I have only found one woman wearing hijab who was not a Muslim and did not see it as a religious act. Most women I talked with cited it as a religious act of submission to God first, and other side benefits (such as being "off limits" to men) second.

No, it was not a thorough survey nor was it a scientific study. But such has been my observations. I would imagine it would be different in a cultural context in which most women are wearing hijab, as opposed to the US in which hijab is a consciously made choice and stands out from the crowd. I agree that it is, from the outside perspective, often political in nature, particularly when forced. Yet, from the inside perspective of a Muslim woman... I cannot say without being a Muslim woman. I have to take their word on why they wear hijab or niqab and how they interpret it.

I personally think it would be rude and intrusive to ask people about their clothes - especially in a society that presumably prides itself on freedom of expression.

I agree. But such is the dissonance in US culture.

Perhaps the same folks that lectured those Islamic women would also like to lecture Indian, Sihk, Jain, and Parsi Zoroastrian women, who wear Odhani head dress:

That is presuming your average US person can notice the difference or even realizes there are more people who wear a veil than only Muslims. Many don't. After 9/11, many Sikhs were attacked. People assumed that since they wore turbans and veils, they were Muslim.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

For a Westerner to confront Muslim women on their choice of clothes is a form of psychological coercion.

I agree.

I wonder about the extent to which it is forced in Muslim countries. Wasn't there a survey that showed the majority of modern Muslim men believe women should exercise their own judgment about the clothes they wear?

That would probably vary widely depending upon the country. (Not allowing women choice in their clothing is probably more political and/or cultural than anything else, imo.)

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Almost all of the Muslim women I have spoken to in the U.S. who choose to wear hijab have said they do so for religious reasons. These may be interpretive reasons (i.e., that hijab is not the only proper interpretation of the Quran verses on modesty, but rather it is a culturally acceptable and readily available way to physically interpret those verses).

I don't know if there is a conscious connection between practice and perceived doctrine or scripture. It's unclear whether there is any religious reflection at all in predominantly Muslim countries where certain dress is merely a custom, so that there is actually very little thought even given to it. I would be reluctant to generalize from a sample of expatriates because their circumstances would be totally different from an indigenous environment.

There have been numerous studies on dress code with samples of immigrants. A dominant theme is that wearing "traditional" clothes is a way that immigrant Muslim women choose to distinguish themselves from mainstream Western society and this is positively reinforcing in a way that is actually incidental to religious concepts.

Basically, the dress practice is an opportunity to exercise choice and a way to crystalize personal identity. The Muslim identity aspect might be more obvious for someone who considers themselves religious. But even then it's ambiguous. It's totally possible that women start to see themselves as being more religious as a kind of side effect of wearing clothes that are symbolic of Islamic identity. That's different from them choosing to wear certain clothes they as consistent with a certain religious identity. It could work both ways, of course.

At any rate, choice of clothes can be a way of organizing one's relationship to the world. This make sense for immigrant Muslim women since the thought of just blending in would likely be consciously considered by someone who chooses not to dress like everyone else. In the words of one self-identified Muslim woman, it is a way to demonstrate "having the courage to stand out from the crowd." It has the quality of being an almost defiant way to define one's personal identity by making a point of not living for other people's approval - i.e., disengaging from "other people’s opinion and wishing them to like you and accept you. It’s a great feeling, not allowing other people to change your mood or influence your decisions."

Similarly, another survey respondent mentioned "liking the fact that i was doing what i wanted to do" regardless of social perceptions.
“Hijab Survey” – Help unveiling the mystery The Hijablog

These kinds of concerns may not come up in indigenous samples at all.

It should be noted that the religious meaning that Hijab has for Muslim women in Western countries may be quite different from Western stereotypes. When the choice of dress has involved reflection and conscious choice, it seems to help reinforce a sense of personal powerr in terms of the ability to exercise autonomy. It can also be socially rewarding their reference group. These "fringe benefits" for choice of dress are extrinsic to any religious considerations.

Suffice it to say that people are complicated and that they have complex reasons for doing what they do. Sadly, I am very interested in people's attitudes and motivations and predictably I get caught up in these kinds of discussions every time.

[path_of_one]

I get what you're saying, Netti, and have read various anthropological discussions saying the same thing. However, I think it is problematic to segregate religious life from other aspects of identity, perhaps particularly for some Muslims, as one's religion is supposed to be an act of submission in all aspects of life. I suppose it whether one is looking at it from an etic or emic perspective. For example, the determination to "be me" as a reason to wear hijab, in opposition to assimilation... I am not so sure that this is not religious. If one sees the self as first a Muslim, in submission to God alone, and in seeing that assimilation would cause one to be less concerned about God and more concerned about others' opinions, then the determination to "be myself" and defy such assimilation could be a religious act. Overall, in my studies of identity, I find that people have a sort of blurring of identities... so frequently they cannot separate one aspect of themselves from another, and if this is the case I am not sure that artificially separating them for theory is useful or accurate.

I was primarily discussing the difficulties of modesty being variously culturally conceived, and how when one version of modesty is embedded in a religious viewpoint, it can be difficult to make sense of in a different cultural context than the original.

I would not doubt that where hijab is more culturally prevalent, less thought may go into its meaning for each individual woman. Yet, then there is the aspect of niqab, which still seems to be self-consciously chosen and to have meaning for some women. I'm thinking, in part, of the recent post MuslimWoman made on her new blog, which got me thinking.

All of that still begs the question, at least for the U.S., where any sort of head-covering/"traditional" religious garb stands out on women and is self-consciously worn.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I get what you're saying, Netti, and have read various anthropological discussions saying the same thing. However, I think it is problematic to segregate religious life from other aspects of identity, perhaps particularly for some Muslims, as one's religion is supposed to be an act of submission in all aspects of life. I suppose it whether one is looking at it from an etic or emic perspective. For example, the determination to "be me" as a reason to wear hijab, in opposition to assimilation... I am not so sure that this is not religious.

It would probably depend on how the person defines religion. Some people mean morals or social customs or how they want to represent their values when they talk about "religion."

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

...such is the dissonance in US culture.

Compare with Australians, a vast majority of whom are supportive of Muslim's choice of dress:
http://www.uws.edu.au/__data/assets/...ia_release.pdf