Morality

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by wil

To me there has to be a higher calling, one more important than pleasing the physical self. Someone said we spend most of our time trying to look good, or insuring we don't look bad. Trying to be right, and not perceived as wrong.

As I see it the reasons for religions and the gods were to institute this on some level. Gov't tries to do this and succeeds to some degree. But the desire to exist morally has to come from within for me anyway, and negative reinforcement does not work or only works to a degree and has to be carried out to the nth degree to be 'totally' effective.

So a religion that creates a desire within me to be a better person is what changed my wicked ways. But that doesn't work for all. I don't know if anything does. I also believe I had to be ready for it, ya know, pupil was ready....

So what I'm hearing is that you sensing a need for change and became willing to make those changes, sought out a vehicle (religion) to facilitate that change?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Paladin

So what I'm hearing is that you sensing a need for change and became willing to make those changes, sought out a vehicle (religion) to facilitate that change?

Actually my path for religions was long, tried a lot and nothing resonated. But all the time my immoral activity was progessing mightily. Tao will shoot me, but I got back into religion for my kids to get some sort of religious education. Between the children and the church, my ways changed. Now that you ask the question, I believe the children assisted in the change as well. ie increased my awareness of how my life and choices impact others.

Thanx for exposing that. I currently see it as a culmination of factors. Not to say I don't still have a way to go on the virtue scale.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Paladin

So I take it you are dismayed at the behavior and attitude of most of the population?

A significant proportion, it seems.

Sometimes I feel the same way, but there are so many people out there that restore my faith in mankind.

I realise this, maybe there’s a skewing of perception because good news isn’t usually news.

Now as I remember you have read Wilber,

Wilber may still be bubbling around on my To Read list but he’s slipping down it. I’ve been impressed by Brad Warner’s books (so I’m a heathen) and he’s kind of underwhelmed by Wilber. Naturally I’m unable to make up my own mind on the matter.

and are aware of the percentage of people worldwide at different levels of moral development, yes?

Well, er, that seems like an obvious thing no?

s.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Is not a certain level of codification required to prevent gross selfishness and hedonism? Or am I misunderstanding?

s.

Sorry, I missed this.

Yeah, I was just thinking of all the parasites that bureaucracy brings with it.

Chris

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Sorry, I missed this.

Yeah, I was just thinking of all the parasites that bureaucracy brings with it.

Chris

okay.

s.

[Tao_Equus]

I like to combine hedonism and morality, I do not think the two mutually exclusive. Pleasure is rarely that if experienced alone and what is more moral than participating and sharing in happiness? Of course pleasure does not float everybody's boat, some people get off on being dour, judgemental and holier than thou but you cannot please all of the people all of the time. But for such people it is usually much easier to bring pleasure to their children.

tao

[greymare]

i dont know who you could possibly be describing there,Tao. (sticks out tongue)

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Well, er, that seems like an obvious thing no?

s.

Exactly so. But accepting this is very difficult no?

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Exactly so. But accepting this is very difficult no?

Yes.








Bugger.





s.

[wil]

Can we define different levels of moral development. Just because something is considered immoral in one society and moral in another, who can judge which society is correct?

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by wil

Can we define different levels of moral development. Just because something is considered immoral in one society and moral in another, who can judge which society is correct?

Many in the educational system use the Kohlberg model, so I guess that would do, but I get your point. At least that system tends to be less ethnocentric. After dealing with kids for the last 20 years or so my wife still uses the model. She is now working with at risk kids at the Children's Ark up in Green Mountain Falls and the model still holds for her.

[Tao_Equus]

I'l put my cards on the table.......ME!!

OOps I thought this was the immorality thread

[wil]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Many in the educational system use the Kohlberg model, so I guess that would do, but I get your point. At least that system tends to be less ethnocentric. After dealing with kids for the last 20 years or so my wife still uses the model. She is now working with at risk kids at the Children's Ark up in Green Mountain Falls and the model still holds for her.

One society thinks multiple wives is ok, another it isn't. One thinks wedding teenagers and preteens is ok, another doesn't. In the US until recently puberty was an indication of when one was ready for childbirth.

Are we more moral now by postponing adulthood?

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by wil

One society thinks multiple wives is ok, another it isn't. One thinks wedding teenagers and preteens is ok, another doesn't. In the US until recently puberty was an indication of when one was ready for childbirth.

Are we more moral now by postponing adulthood?

I think there's a difference between these types of issues and asking "does it harm people? does it sacrifice greater good for beings for my own desires?"

I personally think the problem is most people seem to get hung up on thinking of cultural norms as morals, and then forgetting morals and ethics all together.

Hence, we get people who are honed in on the gay marriage issue in the US and meanwhile we have a large percentage of kids in poverty, lousy health care, and high violence rates.

As for the puberty and childbirth issue, that is easy... In most societies and times, puberty for women was around 15-18 years old. Not that bad of an age for marriage, if the culture prepares people to hit adulthood at that time. In our contemporary America, due to the wonders of high-fat foods and hormone-laden products, our girls are hitting puberty at 9-10 years old. Um, there's a problem. Because there's no way to make a 10-year-old capable of adult judgement- their brains aren't finished with construction yet. Not to mention 10 year olds typically can't survive childbirth without a lot of assistance.

One can be a relativist on a lot of issues and still uphold universal ethics. Many folks are culturally relativist on issues that harm no one and promote universal human rights on issues that would harm others. I.e., I don't support slavery, and I don't care if it's the "norm" somewhere else. Just because something is a norm doesn't make it ethical. However, I don't care about polygamy, so long as all parties are consenting adults and women aren't oppressed. Doesn't work for me, but can't see how it harms those who agree to it.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I like to combine hedonism and morality, I do not think the two mutually exclusive. Pleasure is rarely that if experienced alone and what is more moral than participating and sharing in happiness?

I agree. Hedonism need not be selfish. And it isn't as if all fun and pleasurable actions are unethical.