Mosab Hassan Yousef, son of Hamas leader, becomes Christian

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

Give me a verse from the Christian scriptures, Quahom1.

There are many my friend. How shall I start?

Let's start with the soldier:



Matthew 8:5-13 is long, but I encourage your to take the time to read it.

5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 "Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering." 7 Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him." 8 The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it." 10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour. (Matthew 8:5-13; see Luke 7:1-10)

We can learn at least five truths from this inspiring episode.
First, the centurion was kindhearted, for he cared for one of his servants. The centurion asking help for a servant indicates desperation as if he were a moral father, perhaps. He certainly was a caring head of household and commander. Also, the parallel passage in Luke says that some elders of the Jews encouraged Jesus to help the soldier, pleading, "This man deserves to have you do this, because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue" (Luke 7:4-5).
What is the timeless truth drawn from this first point? It is fitting for a soldier to be helpful to a nation that he enters. The (local) elders of the Jews praise this gentile who built their synagogue. It is possible to be godly and to serve in the military, wielding a sword.
Second, the centurion shows some humility. He tells the Lord that he is not worthy of Jesus coming under his roof. This wins the heart of Jesus, catching his attention. Such humility is doubly important for persons in command. Sometimes power corrupts good character, causing us to become arrogant (which is different from confidence, a virtue).
Third, the centurion understands the chain of command. If he tells a soldier to do something, then the soldier does it. In a similar, but spiritual way, if Jesus tells the disease to depart, it will obey. The centurion recognizes that Jesus has spiritual authority that transcends time and place. Jesus does not have to be on location to heal, so the centurion wisely discerns. This is truly a remarkable insight.
Fourth, it is now important to note what Jesus says and does, and what he does not say or do. He honors the centurion’s request and heals his servant. Next, he praises the centurion to high heaven for his insight, using superlative language: "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith" (verse 10), not as great as the gentile commander’s faith. What does Jesus not say or do? He does not denounce the centurion as a military servant of Rome. He never says, "Leave the army, for it is corrupt and intrinsically evil! If you don’t, I’ll never heal your servant!" As a moral example and teacher, if he wanted to point out behavior and practices that harm the people doing them, then he would have done so. But he didn’t.
Fifth and finally, we civilians must honor soldiers and other military personnel. If they need help in practical ways, then let’s pitch in and help. Let’s bring healing not only to a soldier himself or herself, but to his or her household, as well. If Jesus did this, then why should we ignore his example?

Peter and Cornelius, a centurion


Doesn’t a Roman centurion deserve divine censure on the face of it? After all, we’re reading the New Testament that teaches nothing but "peace and love," right? Note God’s assessment of the commander:

1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2 He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3 One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, "Cornelius!" 4 Cornelius stared at him in fear. "What is it, Lord?" he asked. The angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. (Acts 10:1-4)

big hopes for all mankind (and all men). Christian beliefs that allow for no vengeance.

v/r

Q

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

one of the major problems is the Islamic mandate to "lie" to non-believers, in order to save the heart of the muslim. Abbass was a perfect example of that today, when he told Ms. Rice Palestinians would recognize Israel as a soveriegn nation, then told the Palestinians in Arabic, they would never recognize Israel...lied outright. How can there be a trust of any kind?

Woa....careful there. While the antics of the U.S. government isn't the official topic of this thread, it has been dragged into it.

I just thought I might say....... that the things that a government will do in the name of nationhood, to preserve that country's reputation, aren't always ethical or honourable. That is quite significant for a superpower nation like the USA. There's a lot that the Cabinet would hide from the general public.

There is such a thing as what some may call "responsible lying," that haha, we're so good, we're so powerful, that we are going to lie because we can and there is nobody to stop us. The general public doesn't need to know. We're the ones with the job. The general public is too stupid to understand.

Governments around the world do it all the time. To put it simply, everybody lies. Spouses lie. Parents lie. Children lie. Employees and employers lie. Governments lie. Religious leaders lie. We live in a world of liars.

The people we love, worship and admire are liars. Nobody is clean. Everybody is guilty. We're just too stupid to know the truth, or so the liars may think.

We can't blame religious insurgents for their activities. Their logic isn't so much different to the rest of us. Everybody lies because he/she believes that the person seeking the information doesn't need to know the truth because it's not their job to know. The information belongs to you and you alone.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Woa....careful there. While the antics of the U.S. government isn't the official topic of this thread, it has been dragged into it.

I just thought I might say....... that the things that a government will do in the name of nationhood, to preserve that country's reputation, aren't always ethical or honourable. That is quite significant for a superpower nation like the USA. There's a lot that the Cabinet would hide from the general public.

There is such a thing as what some may call "responsible lying," that haha, we're so good, we're so powerful, that we are going to lie because we can and there is nobody to stop us. The general public doesn't need to know. We're the ones with the job. The general public is too stupid to understand.

Governments around the world do it all the time. To put it simply, everybody lies. Spouses lie. Parents lie. Children lie. Employees and employers lie. Governments lie. Religious leaders lie. We live in a world of liars.

The people we love, worship and admire are liars. Nobody is clean. Everybody is guilty. We're just too stupid to know the truth, or so the liars may think.

We can't blame religious insurgents for their activities. Their logic isn't so much different to the rest of us. Everybody lies because he/she believes that the person seeking the information doesn't need to know the truth because it's not their job to know. The information belongs to you and you alone.

Who said ANYTHING about US government? This is Islamic scripture that specifically states the muslim will LIE to the un-believer in order to protect the Muslim heart. And Dialogue can not deny that passage in the Q'uran, and neither can you. And I hope you have some vestigial knowledge of the Q'uran, before you go putting me in my place, Salt...because Dialogue has not denied one thing I've said this entire thread...so why should you?

I may have been born in the dark, but it wasn't last night.

v/r

Q

by the bye, reading the entire thread might prove interesting to you.

[dailogue is the best]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Christianity isn't statecraft. Christianity is about the individual. It is not about foreign policy, diplomacy, nationhood or government. It does not concern itself with political systems, political structures, law systems, constitutions, who gets executive, legislative, judicial or military powers, war or rules of engagement.

Nice, very nice, Saltmeister. It is nicely put as Quahom1 said. Let's take the path together as you said to dicover truth and love.

You said Christianity is about individual, and that's nice. But, let me tell you that you meant that Christianity is for moments of time, in special place. I will explain. Arent those who work in foreign policy, diplomacy, nationhood or government individuals? Arent the poor American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan individuals? do they stop connecting with Jesus and God once they work there, following the human formulated ways of ruling and conducting, which may contradict with their Christian ethics?? "love your enemies" in one hand, and kill them severly and mercilessly on the other hand...Why Christianity hasnt showed the Christians how to deal with their state affairs, hence Christians can hold to their Christian ethics whenever wherever they are...

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

The hope is that by walking the path and the journey, we discover and learn how to love.

May God fill our hearts with love all the time, Saltmeister. Love is a great bless.

[dailogue is the best]

It's dawn paryer now. i ve to leave.

p.s: this is for a later discussion, Quahom1:"This is Islamic scripture that specifically states the muslim will LIE to the un-believer in order to protect the Muslim heart. And Dialogue can not deny that passage in the Q'uran, and neither can you. And I hope you have some vestigial knowledge of the Q'uran, before you go putting me in my place, Salt...because Dialogue has not denied one thing I've said this entire thread...so why should you?

I may have been born in the dark, but it wasn't last night."

peace

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

Nice, very nice, Saltmeister. It is nicely put as Quahom1 said. Let's take the path together as you said to dicover truth and love.

You said Christianity is about individual, and that's nice. But, let me tell you that you meant that Christianity is for moments of time, in special place. I will explain. Arent those who work in foreign policy, diplomacy, nationhood or government individuals? Arent the poor American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan individuals? do they stop connecting with Jesus and God once they work there, following the human formulated ways of ruling and conducting, which may contradict with their Christian ethics?? "love your enemies" in one hand, and kill them severly and mercilessly on the other hand...Why Christianity hasnt showed the Christians how to deal with their state affairs, hence Christians can hold to their Christian ethics whenever wherever they are...



May God fill our hearts with love all the time, Saltmeister. Love is a great bless.

No, Christianity is a faith that is 24/7, not moments in time. And it has nothing to do with politics. Unfortunately, that is something Muslims have to struggle with, since Islam and politics, and Islam and law is very much combined. Therein lies our crux of the matter (pardon the pun).

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Who said ANYTHING about US government?

The US government is the terrorists' number one enemy. It's implicitly involved in everything the terrorists do. It lies, gives itself a bad name, and so the terrorists use it as propaganda to recruit more people so they can get rid of this "Great Satan." In war or any ideological struggle, people will often break established moral principles and laws just to get the job done. In the meantime, they hide their crimes so that if there is anyone who would object, they don't find out. You can't really blame them for lying. Even our own religious leaders lie.

As for scripture explicitly commanding or inspiring deception, I'll leave that to you and Dialogue.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

The US government is the terrorists' number one enemy. It's implicitly involved in everything the terrorists do. It lies, gives itself a bad name, and so the terrorists use it as propaganda to recruit more people so they can get rid of this "Great Satan." In war or any ideological struggle, people will often break established moral principles and laws just to get the job done. In the meantime, they hide their crimes so that if there is anyone who would object, they don't find out. You can't really blame them for lying. Even our own religious leaders lie.

As for scripture explicitly commanding or inspiring deception, I'll leave that to you and Dialogue.

Horse pucky. This has been going on for centuries. America is just now getting involved in it (seriously). Nothing new under the sun...just new players, and old...

[Dogbrain]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

I know, Quahom1. And there are many Christians and Jews in this forum whom I feel their tender hearts and kind emotions.

Looks to me that all you feel is militarism and hatred.

You will either not respond or respond in a way that proves my statement true.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I have, every day.

I second that....

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

Is this the Bible teachings? I asked about what does Christianity says of dealing with war and conflicts?

Not to be apart of them. And many christians are not... Which is good.. I would rather be seen a "traitor" than go and kill others. And those motivated by love and peace also should be like this. For god's kingdom is not of this realm... So why would those of faith fight and die for a kingdom that they wish not to be part of?

[dailogue is the best]

Originally Posted by Dogbrain

Looks to me that all you feel is militarism and hatred.

You will either not respond or respond in a way that proves my statement true.

Everyone sees what is reflected within himself/herself, Dogbrain

[dailogue is the best]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Who said ANYTHING about US government? This is Islamic scripture that specifically states the muslim will LIE to the un-believer in order to protect the Muslim heart. And Dialogue can not deny that passage in the Q'uran, and neither can you. And I hope you have some vestigial knowledge of the Q'uran, before you go putting me in my place, Salt...because Dialogue has not denied one thing I've said this entire thread...so why should you?

I may have been born in the dark, but it wasn't last night.

v/r

Q

by the bye, reading the entire thread might prove interesting to you.

salam Quahom1,

I think you have confused between what is known as taqiyya (according to Shiaa), and hypocrasy. The difference between the two is striking. There is no verse in the Quran which ask Muslims to LIE. Taqiyya is to conceal your faith when there is fear of being tortured and killed as the case were with Muslims in the Mecca, and this is what is mentioned in the Quran.

Hypocrasy is completley rejected in Islam, and the prophet Muhamed (pbuh) even in his jokes said nothing but the truth.

The following site may give you more insights, Quahom1:
al-Taqiyya/Dissimulation (Part III)

Is Mr. Abbas a model of Islam???!!!! as Saltmeister said we shouldnt read religion in the doings of those who practise it. Unfortunately,most of them are not committed.

[dailogue is the best]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

There are many my friend. How shall I start?

Let's start with the soldier:




Matthew 8:5-13 is long, but I encourage your to take the time to read it.

5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 "Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering." 7 Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him." 8 The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it." 10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour. (Matthew 8:5-13; see Luke 7:1-10)

We can learn at least five truths from this inspiring episode.
First, the centurion was kindhearted, for he cared for one of his servants. The centurion asking help for a servant indicates desperation as if he were a moral father, perhaps. He certainly was a caring head of household and commander. Also, the parallel passage in Luke says that some elders of the Jews encouraged Jesus to help the soldier, pleading, "This man deserves to have you do this, because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue" (Luke 7:4-5).
What is the timeless truth drawn from this first point? It is fitting for a soldier to be helpful to a nation that he enters. The (local) elders of the Jews praise this gentile who built their synagogue. It is possible to be godly and to serve in the military, wielding a sword.
Second, the centurion shows some humility. He tells the Lord that he is not worthy of Jesus coming under his roof. This wins the heart of Jesus, catching his attention. Such humility is doubly important for persons in command. Sometimes power corrupts good character, causing us to become arrogant (which is different from confidence, a virtue).
Third, the centurion understands the chain of command. If he tells a soldier to do something, then the soldier does it. In a similar, but spiritual way, if Jesus tells the disease to depart, it will obey. The centurion recognizes that Jesus has spiritual authority that transcends time and place. Jesus does not have to be on location to heal, so the centurion wisely discerns. This is truly a remarkable insight.
Fourth, it is now important to note what Jesus says and does, and what he does not say or do. He honors the centurion’s request and heals his servant. Next, he praises the centurion to high heaven for his insight, using superlative language: "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith" (verse 10), not as great as the gentile commander’s faith. What does Jesus not say or do? He does not denounce the centurion as a military servant of Rome. He never says, "Leave the army, for it is corrupt and intrinsically evil! If you don’t, I’ll never heal your servant!" As a moral example and teacher, if he wanted to point out behavior and practices that harm the people doing them, then he would have done so. But he didn’t.
Fifth and finally, we civilians must honor soldiers and other military personnel. If they need help in practical ways, then let’s pitch in and help. Let’s bring healing not only to a soldier himself or herself, but to his or her household, as well. If Jesus did this, then why should we ignore his example?

Peter and Cornelius, a centurion



Doesn’t a Roman centurion deserve divine censure on the face of it? After all, we’re reading the New Testament that teaches nothing but "peace and love," right? Note God’s assessment of the commander:

1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2 He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3 One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, "Cornelius!" 4 Cornelius stared at him in fear. "What is it, Lord?" he asked. The angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. (Acts 10:1-4)

big hopes for all mankind (and all men). Christian beliefs that allow for no vengeance.

v/r

Q

I ve really enjoyed reading this episode, Quahom1.

I will come back with my analysis later. My sister needs the computer.

[dailogue is the best]

Originally Posted by Alex P

Not to be apart of them. And many christians are not... Which is good.. I would rather be seen a "traitor" than go and kill others. And those motivated by love and peace also should be like this. For god's kingdom is not of this realm... So why would those of faith fight and die for a kingdom that they wish not to be part of?

The issue isnt to go and kill, Alex P...the issue is what will you do if you are attacked? will you give love to those who attack you?

Do you mean that people of faith shouldnt fight (even if they are subject to slavery, attack and exploitation), and that those who fight are of no faith??!! How come??!!

[dailogue is the best]

The eposide you have stated with, Quahom1, is quite interesting. Also, the interpertation is more interesting.

So now we may draw some conclusions:

1- Since Jesus (pbuh) praised that soldier, then "love your enemies" may have another meaning.It may be similar to this hadith wherein the prophet Muhamed (pbuh) said:"Assist your brother, whether he be an oppressor or an oppressed. 'But how shall we do it when someone is an oppressor?' Muhammad said, 'Assisting an oppressor is by forbidding and withholding that person from oppression.This is how you help him”. Narrated by Anas.

2- Mosab converted to Christianity because he sees that "love your enemies" is the solution to the Palestinian/ Israeli struggle. Now, with what you have said, Quahom1, we learn that conflict and war are matters of life, and Christians have to get to the field to defend their rights. And that's their right, of course. So, Christianity praise those who fight for their lands, and dignity. And that's logic and reasonable.

3- This fact may lead us to another important question:" since Christianity supports soldiers, and fighters, and since those soldiers are Christians, what is about the "HOW" to fight in the Christian perspective? What are "to do" or "not to do" in conflicts and wars according to Christianity?