Mosab Hassan Yousef, son of Hamas leader, becomes Christian

[dailogue is the best]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

1. If you are regarding Jesus helping the centurian as a way of keeping him from becoming frustrated and opressive in order to try and get his way, the validity of the statement Mohammad made, is logical. However, consideration must be given to the fact that the centurian approached Jesus not as a soldier per se, but as a man, who was humble in his knowledge of who he was, standing before Jesus. The centurian felt unworthy before the Son of God, yet decided still to ask for Jesus' help. There was no guile or arrogance in his heart. He didn't care that he was a foriegner, asking a Jewish man for help. He was a man, asking the Lord for help. He also had no doubt that Jesus could help him, but I suspect there was a part of him concerned about whether Jesus "would" help him. Yet he asked anyway, and his petition was granted.

There is no doubt that the actions of that humble centurian are admirable. The prophet Jesus (pbuh) had many miracles we as Muslims believe in. In the Quran we find the following verses, saying:

"Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird by God’s leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by God’s leave. And I announce to you what you eat and what you store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you if you are to be believers. (Qur’an 3: 49).

I meant by the prophet Muhammed's saying that the concept of "love your enemies" might be similar to his saying" help the oppressor" but he showed "how": by preventing him from oppression.

When we prevent enemies from harming us, and others we show them love. When we prevent an oppressor from doing harm, we actually help him.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

2. Mosab's reasons to convert to Christianity are not fully known by anyone but Mosab and God. However, part of his reasoning is that the concept of "Love your enemies" (e.g. look past the anger and frustration and pain, and see the value of the "enemies" themselves as worthy human beings, and treat them as such), strongly appealed to Mosab. Occam's razor...("All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best.").

For me, it is as if asking me to love someone who wants to get me and my family out of my house, and invade it???!!!

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Standing up for one's dignity, should be the fight of every man, not just Christians, or Americans. That is a choice and action worthy of praise.

3. Christianity supports all people of all walks of life Dialogue, even and especially non-Christians. As far as "how" to fight, well the first rule is this:

"He who fights monsters should look into it that he himself does not become a monster. When you gaze long into the Abyss, the Abyss also gazes into you." (Neitzsche, I believe).

For a Christian to fight, the cause to fight must be just, and the fight itself must be justly conducted. What determines the cause to be just can get very complex, however there are core rules that must be in place.

a. The war is conducted by a legitimate civil authority
b. The war is based on a just cause
c. The war is waged with the right intention
d. The war is undertaken only as a last resort
e. The war is fought on the basis of a reasonable chance of success
f. The war has an establishment of a superior peace as its goal
g. The war is waged with proper discrimination between combatants and non-combatants.

It get's real complicated after that, because "man" is complicated.

Your turn...

v/r

Q

Wonderful! Are there any Christian scriptures supporting what you said?

As a conclusion, I may say that war does really exist within Christianity. So, Mosab's talking about peace as the solution to the Palestinian/ Israeli struggle is a very short-sighted, idealistic,escapist and unrealistic vision.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by dailogue is the best

There is no doubt that the actions of that humble centurian are admirable. The prophet Jesus (pbuh) had many miracles we as Muslims believe in. In the Quran we find the following verses, saying:

"Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird by God’s leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by God’s leave. And I announce to you what you eat and what you store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you if you are to be believers. (Qur’an 3: 49).

I meant by the prophet Muhammed's saying that the concept of "love your enemies" might be similar to his saying" help the oppressor" but he showed "how": by preventing him from oppression.

When we prevent enemies from harming us, and others we show them love. When we prevent an oppressor from doing harm, we actually help him.



For me, it is as if asking me to love someone who wants to get me and my family out of my house, and invade it???!!!




Wonderful! Are there any Christian scriptures supporting what you said?

As a conclusion, I may say that war does really exist within Christianity. So, Mosab's talking about peace as the solution to the Palestinian/ Israeli struggle is a very short-sighted, idealistic,escapist and unrealistic vision.

Yes there are a lot of scriptures supporting what I said, I got the philosophy from the bible, and learned men of history who took time to think about what the bible said.

When we (the US) went to war in 1919, and again in 1941, our goal was to stop the oppressors, thereby protecting our homes as well. But WE did not initiate the war. We did not start the war. We did, come to the defense of others though.

As a side note, history shows that if the US and western allies had not acted with conviciton and determination to push the "enemy" back, there would be no Morocco today, at least not one you would recognize. Likewise, if we were to leave the decisions of managing the middle east to the neighbors in the area, there would be no Palestine, or Israel, at least not one you would recognize.

[farhan]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

When we (the US) went to war in 1919, and again in 1941, our goal was to stop the oppressors, thereby protecting our homes as well. But WE did not initiate the war. We did not start the war. We did, come to the defense of others though.

You mean pearl harbour happened without prior notice?

As a side note, history shows that if the US and western allies had not acted with conviciton and determination to push the "enemy" back, there would be no Morocco today, at least not one you would recognize. Likewise, if we were to leave the decisions of managing the middle east to the neighbors in the area, there would be no Palestine, or Israel, at least not one you would recognize.

Well if there were no nazis, there wouldnt havebeen any morroco, pakistan, indonesia either .

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by farhan

You mean pearl harbour happened without prior notice?


Well if there were no nazis, there wouldnt havebeen any morroco, pakistan, indonesia either .

Indeed Farhan, if you know something I'm missing, I'm all ears. But, if you are about to tell me the conspiracy theory of the US government knowing before hand that its main Pacific military base was going to be bombed to oblivion, you are wasting your breath.

And as far as the lack of countries, you are right, but there was Nazism, and as a result, these countries do exist. And their citizens are first, second and third generations, which means, there is no going back. They are viable.

[dailogue is the best]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Yes there are a lot of scriptures supporting what I said, I got the philosophy from the bible, and learned men of history who took time to think about what the bible said.

When we (the US) went to war in 1919, and again in 1941, our goal was to stop the oppressors, thereby protecting our homes as well. But WE did not initiate the war. We did not start the war. We did, come to the defense of others though.

As a side note, history shows that if the US and western allies had not acted with conviciton and determination to push the "enemy" back, there would be no Morocco today, at least not one you would recognize. Likewise, if we were to leave the decisions of managing the middle east to the neighbors in the area, there would be no Palestine, or Israel, at least not one you would recognize.

Well, Quahom1, my first intention was to discuss the concept of " love your enemies" and war in Christianity. So, since Christianity supports war,Mosab has to rethink, and find real solutions to his people, instead of depending on love.

Concerning your support of the US foriegn policy, I think there are A LOT to be said, but it is not my concern here.

[sonoman]

Wars happen when the social structure of nations break down, i.e., when they become dysfunctional, sick. Jesus teaches us to heal the sick. It was Paul's theology that told Christians to kow tow to Rome, not question authority, but that was not Jesus' idea. But he didn't advocate violence. He did tell us to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Why be "wise" if not for advancing the Kingdom of God as harmlessly as possible but still advancing it?

[Alex P]

Originally Posted by sonoman

Wars happen when the social structure of nations break down, i.e., when they become dysfunctional, sick. Jesus teaches us to heal the sick. It was Paul's theology that told Christians to kow tow to Rome, not question authority, but that was not Jesus' idea. But he didn't advocate violence. He did tell us to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Why be "wise" if not for advancing the Kingdom of God as harmlessly as possible but still advancing it?

Yup nations of man will always break down they are all just temporary things. (there is only one fit to rule.) The people of these nations are all welcome to be embraced by the eternal kingdom of god... And that is why jesus in my opinon did not fight any nations... There is no need, they will all fall before god. And jesus also taught to love one another, brother and enemy.... May I also be the first to welcome ya! Welcome!

[sonoman]

Thank you. I will cherish your post and look at it in fond remembrance when you wish you never said it after coming to know my Christian beliefs..

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by sonoman

Thank you. I will cherish your post and look at it in fond remembrance when you wish you never said it after coming to know my Christian beliefs..

Lol, some how I doubt Alex will regret what he said, coming from where he's been. And Welcome to Interfaith Sono. (like as in sonar man?)

v/r

Q

[Alex P]

Originally Posted by sonoman

Thank you. I will cherish your post and look at it in fond remembrance when you wish you never said it after coming to know my Christian beliefs..

Elaborate?

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Lol, some how I doubt Alex will regret what he said, coming from where he's been.