Mr. Darwin can you explain....?

[Postmaster]

The theory of evolution is flawed do people understand this?

Mr. Darwin explain self sacrifice? Does that fall into the rules of nature which are Survival of the fittest (Dog eat Dog).

Self sacrifice is one thing that most major religions recognise as the ultimate good deed.. And it doesn't even have to be for family members, we have even had people self sacrifice for animals!

Mr. Darwin, how could you over look such a largely practised action? Self sacrifice the ultimate selfless good deed.

Science can't tell you this, but religion can show you this.

Don't build your house on sand, build your house on rock a solid foundation. Good deeds is like building your house on the rock by honesty and giving. You might build your house faster on the sand but it will eventually fall down.

[brucegdc]

It would probably help your cause if you displayed some knowledge about the theory you are trying to denigrate in such an abrasive fashion.

1) The theory of evolution does not deal with individual behavior.
2) The theory of evolution does not, in fact, deal with individuals at all.
3) The theory of evolution does not, in fact, deal with behavior at all.

The theory of evolution, or to be more precise, the mechanism suggested by Darwin to explain the observed facts that suggested evolution, that of natural selection (not, by the way, either Survival of the Fittest or Dog Eat Dog, which are two different things entirely), states that *physical* traits in a species that offer an advantage in the environmental situation surrounding a group of that species are more likely to be passed on to the succeeding generations, and will, over time, eventually become the dominant traits of the species in that area, eventually differentiating them from other groups facing different environmental challenges.

In the words of the judicial system: Objection overruled. Irrelevant and argumentative. Next case...

[DT Strain]

I have found my life has been improved by the adoption of a rule I've made for myself. I never debate evolution with someone unless they have read, cover to cover, at least one book on evolution, written by an evolutionist (and I have read several creationist books).

If people aren't willing to do that then it's a waste of time to debate them.

[Postmaster]

Originally Posted by brucegdc

1) The theory of evolution does not deal with individual behavior..

Really...? Not true to all extent.

Originally Posted by brucegdc

2) The theory of evolution does not, in fact, deal with individuals at all

Really...? Not true to all extent.

Originally Posted by brucegdc

3) The theory of evolution does not, in fact, deal with behavior at all..

Really? Not true to all extent.

Your are so utterly wrong in regards to this..



The theory of evolution is based on A) natural selection. And the whole foundation of the theory is based on B) survival of the fittest. Take away survival of the fittest and you have just taken out the 2 pillars that hold up the theory. Survival of the fittest does not explain why bees kill themselves to protect there hive or why humans and other life forms self sacrifice. As a matter of fact scientists are still scratching there heads over this. The theory if evolution is flawed simply because its not solid enough and people like me can show an other side and then get atacked for it. Thats why its flawed. However I will not site here and tell you the sun is not hot, the earth does not go around the sun because thats clear and crisp as anything The theory of evoloution is flawed and also in the world of science.

[remmusashi]

Postmaster:

I believe an understanding of Evolution and Natural Selection would work to better your argument.

Natural Selection and Evolution are not the same thing, just as numbers and mathmatics are not the same thing. If you where to see the numeral 4 written on a page though you understand the concept of the numeral 4 you have, in no way, performed any mathmatics. Numbers are the driving force of math and without them complexities of physics and geometry would not exist. However without physics and geometry numbers would still be relevant. So it is with Evolution and Natural Selection

Evolution is the concept by which species evolve into organisms unlike those that previously existed. They become more specialized to their environment and new species emerge. There are several methods by which this speciation takes place. The most common and most direct is seperation and isolation. This is seen in places like Australia, Madagascar, and the Gallopagos.
Natural Selection, on the other hand, is Darwin's proposed prima movera. It is the driving force of Evolution.

Natural Selection supposes that an individual within a species that carries a mutated genome that increases its' ability to survive and reproduce will pass on the mutation. This, in turn, increases the survivability of its offspring and so on down the line. This mutation often increases the individual's ability to compete for food sources and breeding partners. This decreases the survivability of those without the mutation and thus makes them obsolete. It renders the previous population extinct. A shift will have occured and the new popultion will have changed (over very long periods of time) to consist entirely of the more survivable, mutated group. This is Natural Selection.

Natural Selection is a fact. It has been documented and observed. Even the most devout and resolute have recognized its validity.

Evolution is still considered "theory."

As for your claim that personal sacrifice is not noticed in the animal world: I fear you are incorrect.

The term altruism is used in the natural world to desribe just what you are claiming does not exist. Anyone who has ever had the misfortune of walking up on a wild bear cub in the woods will know what that cub's mother is willing to sacrifice to protect its young. Soldier baboons in Africa that guard a troop as they walk across open spaces and leave themselves exposed to predators will fight to the death to protect the group.

What greater sacrifice is there than to give your life to the good of the group? I believe that most Christians would say that there is no greater love than this.

[remmusashi]

postmaster

You answered your own question. Bees kill themselves to protect the hive. Thus increasing the survivability of the hive, thus propogating the ability to reproduce and continue to pass on the mutation that triggers the bees to sacrifice themselves. You have rendered your own argument inane.

[Postmaster]

Maybe I have been thrown off by a documentary I was watching on sky as regards to this.



You can probably apply the theory of evolution to every aspect of life if you twist it to apply. All I'm trying to say is that there are aspects of life that the theory can't explain with out twisting the fundamentals of the theory.

[bananabrain]

postmaster -

you're just too aggressive. you're starting to really tick people off. i understand you have strong views but they are for the most part your *views*, not "incontrovertible fact". mere force of opinion is not going to convince anyone of anything. in fact, overtly trying to convince people of the rightness of one's opinion is exactly calculated to get up their noses. so calm down, stop making generalised accusations or the moderators are going to get more involved.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Postmaster]

point taken.

[I, Brian]

The branch of evolutionary theory that deals with group dynamics is called Sociobiology, and this is where the social group is effectively behaving as a single self-protective gene pool. So when an individual sacrifices themselves to save their kin, it can still be construed as genes looking after themselves.

I'm under the impression that Richard Dawkin's "The Selfish Gene" pretty much builds upon work Edward Wilson's formulations in the 1970's. Wilson's work was actually a pretty simple read, but I've not read Dawkins, I'm afraid.

EDIT: More on the topic of Sociobiology from the Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociobiology

[Postmaster]

Thanks for the input, much appreciated Brian

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

The theory of evolution is flawed do people understand this?

Mr. Darwin explain self sacrifice? Does that fall into the rules of nature which are Survival of the fittest (Dog eat Dog).

Self sacrifice is one thing that most major religions recognise as the ultimate good deed.. And it doesn't even have to be for family members, we have even had people self sacrifice for animals!

Mr. Darwin, how could you over look such a largely practised action? Self sacrifice the ultimate selfless good deed.

Science can't tell you this, but religion can show you this.

Don't build your house on sand, build your house on rock a solid foundation. Good deeds is like building your house on the rock by honesty and giving. You might build your house faster on the sand but it will eventually fall down.

*psst* He's dead...

Oh and rock or sand.... -eventually- all will fall down.

[Vajradhara]

biological evolution = change in allele frequencies in a given population over time.



metta,

~v

[arthra]

Postmaster:

I think they had an anniversary for Darwin a year or so ago.. there's no doubt in my mind his findings have had a great deal of influence ..maybe something like Freud did in psychology and Mark in sociology and economic theory..Maybe Einstein for physics...

Also people have taken a few of his ideas and misinterpreted them.. I don't believe for an instant that he would have approved of Social Darwinism.

There are some species where self sacrifice is seen:

But according to James A. Shapiro of the University of Chicago, it is becoming clear that even bacteria form complex communities equivalent in function to multicelled animals. In a recent article in Scientific American, Dr. Shapiro described some startling discoveries made by Jeffrey C. Burnham and others about bacterial behavior. One species, Myxococcus xanthus, actually hunts cooperatively.The bacteria work in teams, surrounding prey, trapping it and attacking it with digestive enzymes. Self Sacrifice in Nature
Self sacrifice on behalf of one's community occurs fairly often in nature.

See the entire article at:

Some Thoughts on Self Sacrifice - The New York Times

I also believe that Darwin began as a religious person but with the loss of his daughter he began to doubt the efficacy of prayer and so on..

Read:

Charles Darwin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

- Art

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Mr. Darwin explain self sacrifice? Does that fall into the rules of nature which are Survival of the fittest (Dog eat Dog).

PM, sometimes cooperation (self-sacrifice) enhances fitness and survivability.