Mumbai

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by c0de

There is no solution Nick... Get over it.

The chances aren't "extreme slim"... they are non-existent.

So for you the beast reigns supreme. Perhaps so but it is also possible that even a small amount of human consciousness in the world and within the lair of the Beast can produce results that limits its horrors. I believe so which is why I value real human individuality or the "black sheep" capable of seeing the beast as it is and together to serve to minimize its destruction.

The Individual

As you can see, the potential for individuality free of societal conditioning is not the hot topic of the day. Yet without the presence of enough individuals I believe you will be proven right and the Beast will reign supreme as its moods change from compassion into destruction in continuing cycles.

[c0de]

So for you the beast reigns supreme. Perhaps so but it is also possible that even a small amount of human consciousness in the world and within the lair of the Beast can produce results that limits its horrors. I believe so which is why I value real human individuality or the "black sheep" capable of seeing the beast as it is and together to serve to minimize its destruction.

The Individual

As you can see, the potential for individuality free of societal conditioning is not the hot topic of the day. Yet without the presence of enough individuals I believe you will be proven right and the Beast will reign supreme as its moods change from compassion into destruction in continuing cycles.

I do not see things the way you do. I do not agree with your
philosophy... But I do appreciate your intentions.

You do what you have to do,
I'll do what I have to do.

And hopefully, God willing, our
efforts will compliment each other.

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by c0de

I do not see things the way you do. I do not agree with your
philosophy... But I do appreciate your intentions.

You do what you have to do,
I'll do what I have to do.

And hopefully, God willing, our
efforts will compliment each other.

Well put and I appreciate it. I've also felt that you have something genuine in you that seeks the greater good rather then the usual self justification for our frustrations and the emptiness of our heart.

[enlightenment]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Well the Islamist zealots have again gone for soft targets like the cowards they have been brainwashed to be. This is of course a huge provocation to India to take a much harder line against Islam and so up the tension in the region. And it is up to the west to wake up to the fact that Islamic extremism is not going to go away. I hope the west supports and encourages India in taking the firmest of hands with the cowards of Islam.

tao

To understand (therefore, hope to negate), the actions of such men, one first must try to understand their psyche.

When the police want to catch the clever serial killer, they do not beat their chests, they will use the professional services of a forensic psychologist, who will use his experience to objectively evaluate the situation.

If you want to see an end to these sorts of actions, then you must understand what motivates them.

What ultimately drives them is an extreme and probably inaccurate translation of a book they call the Koran.

They have no fear of their actions, since they truly believe that upon their death, they will live on, in a place of paradise.

It is the same incentive in all established religions. Obey this, do this, and you will live forever, and it will be really great -

Failure to do this or that, and you will live forever, but be tortured for all that time -

It is an absurd notion which drives them, and I am afraid that until the day homo sapien accepts that the Koran, Bible, etc, were simply accounts written by primative men, at a time in society were a lot of things were not understood, in a part of the world that in no way represents modern life, then there will be no change.

Killing in the name of religion is not exclusive to Islamic miltants.

All the desert religions have gone through the violent phase.

Christianity has blood on it's hands. The same goes for Judaism. It is not unexpected that the violent phase is now the property of some Islamists, since Islam is a younger religion than Judaism and Christianity, of course.

[Nick_A]

Enlightenment

It is an absurd notion which drives them, and I am afraid that until the day homo sapien accepts that the Koran, Bible, etc, were simply accounts written by primative men, at a time in society were a lot of things were not understood, in a part of the world that in no way represents modern life, then there will be no change.

Perhaps it wasn't primitive Man that writes sacred text but rather primitive Man is the majority that are unable to appreciate it. This means the world is still filled with primitive man and modern life that is coming to worship the golden idol more and more to the point of openly be willing to kill for what it represents. If this is the result of education leading to modern life, we've got troubles.

Worker dies at Long Island Wal-Mart after being trampled in Black Friday stampede

[bob x]

Originally Posted by c0de

Wahabis in S.A. >-----------------> The Saudi Royal Familly
Saudi Royal Family >---------------> The Sykes-Picot Agreement

Horse manure. The Wahhabi sect took control of central Arabia in the 18th century, and the current royal family has its roots back then. The Saudi capture of Mecca and Medina was no part of "Sykes-Picot"; the British were on the side of the Hashemites, whom the Saudis threw out.
This is another example of blaming ANYBODY ELSE except the Muslims themselves for what they have done to themselves and their religion.

[greymare]

ok, now Im even more confused......... who do i believe....

[c0de]

@ Bob

Originally Posted by bob x

This is another example of blaming ANYBODY ELSE except the Muslims themselves for what they have done to themselves and their religion.

Actually, I fully blame us Muslims for our present predicament.
The books I cited show how the Muslim leaders were willing participants
in the whole scheme of things.

The Wahhabi sect took control of central Arabia in the 18th century, and the current royal family has its roots back then. The Saudi capture of Mecca and Medina was no part of "Sykes-Picot"; the British were on the side of the Hashemites, whom the Saudis threw out.

The reason I cited the Sykes-Picot agreement was because it
punctuated the end of the the Ottoman Empire in the Middle East.
And as we know, the Ottoman Empire was the greatest problem
for the Saudi warlord clan. You are right, the British initially backed
the Hashemites, but switched sides as soon as they got thrown own.
Then they supported the Saudi guerrillas (the Lawrence of Arabia affair)
against the Ottomans during this time. Or wait.... was the Lawerence
guys backing the Hashmemites??? oh yea... damn, my bad.

The chart was never meant to be precise. This is why I provided
the books for further reading. Its been a year or two since I have
read them myself, but still, I apologize for the imprecision.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by enlightenment

If you want to see an end to these sorts of actions, then you must understand what motivates them.

Any ideas? Nine out the ten terrorists were taken out. How do we assess the ideology of dead men?

What ultimately drives them is an extreme and probably inaccurate translation of a book they call the Koran.

How many of the terrorists did you speak with before they were taken out by the Indian commando teams?

They have no fear of their actions, since they truly believe that upon their death, they will live on, in a place of paradise.

They told you that?

Killing in the name of religion is not exclusive to Islamic miltants.

Which of the terrorists mentioned religion?

Until aware, thinking people recognize social pathology for what it is, the terrorists and the second rate political propagandists who seek to exploit the terrorists' work will continue to use their blatant emotional manipulations to their desired ends.

In principle, the propagandists are no different from the killers. They are different only in terms of immediacy of impact. Anyone who incites others to violence by means of propaganda and lies is arguably just as guilty as one who pulls the trigger or throws the grenade.

[enlightenment]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

In principle, the propagandists are no different from the killers. They are different only in terms of immediacy of impact. Anyone who incites others to violence by means of propaganda and lies is arguably just as guilty as one who pulls the trigger or throws the grenade.

Yet, to many Muslims who strap explosives to themselves, and give their own lives to murder innocent civilians, they are not inciting violence by means of lies and propaganda, in their worldview, they are doing a noble and hionourable thing.

For as long as we produce sects and individuals who think that way, we will always have this kind of violence.

That is why understanding the psyche is an important step toward a long term solution.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by enlightenment

Yet, to many Muslims who strap explosives to themselves, and give their own lives to murder innocent civilians, they are not inciting violence by means of lies and propaganda, in their worldview, they are doing a noble and honourable thing.

Did you have some interviews to share where these people say they were acting in a noble and honourable way?

For as long as we produce sects and individuals who think that way, we will always have this kind of violence.

How do they think? What did they say?

That is why understanding the psyche is an important step toward a long term solution.

As you know, there are entire websites devoted to the spread of fraudulent and hateful political material that is polluting our environment. Some of it is thinly disguised war propaganda and ethnic/racist hate propaganda. I appreciate your interest in finding information that can help dispell myths, reduce fear, and minimize the chance of irrational kneejerk reactions.

I look forward to seeing any specific detail you might share concerning the events in Mumbai and the attackers' ideology and motives. My impression is that we know very little. Nine of the ten terrorists were taken out by Indian commandos. Unless these dead assailants left documents or videos, we won't ever get first-person explanations from them as to why they perpetrated this outrage.

[siddhartha]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Any ideas? Nine out the ten terrorists were taken out. How do we assess the ideology of dead men?.

Hi Netti-Netti. I am an Indian.

And one has been caught,Azam Amir Kasav, and upon interrogation , he has confessed to training in terrorist camps in pakistan, and being motivated by jihadi ideology.

November 2008 Mumbai attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

They told you that?

This is the usual absurd motivating factor for most of these terrorists.

Just as an example,in an interview with a jihadi a few years back in pakistan, he stated that , before he dies in jihad , he wanted to line his eyes with kohl (a beauty aid )so that the 72 virgins in heaven will find him attractive.

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

In principle, the propagandists are no different from the killers. They are different only in terms of immediacy of impact. Anyone who incites others to violence by means of propaganda and lies is arguably just as guilty as one who pulls the trigger or throws the grenade.

Yes, and in order to get rid of the branches, one has to start from the roots.

[farhan]

Originally Posted by siddhartha

They seem to be well-indoctrinated by their pakistani masters on what to say and do.

And typical pakistani propaganda.

If they just spend a quarter of their time and energy spent in conjuring these propaganda( against other countries and religions which they wish to malign ) into setting their society right and reeducating the islamic society on the perils of jihadism, they would not be in the hellhole they are in right now.

I have been watching Indian News, so I know where this vitriol originated from. The Indian press has been sensationalizing the Mumbai terror. Hinduvata will be using it to win elections. Blaming others for their own deficiencies has become more like Indian National Sport. There is simply no evidence (as before) that there has been any foreign hand in all this. But as always, within few hours of every explosion, its either Pakistan or Bangladesh

In 2002 murderers attacked a train full of pilgrims. For two weeks the identity of the ruffians were kept secret and fingers were pointed at Muslims. A campaign all over Gujarat was waged to blame the murder on Muslims.And then pre-planned mobs massacred 2000 innocent Muslims and Christians. Supported by whom ..... the govt of india, the Modi gang.

And samjhauta express? Indians actually call Pakistanis to their country & blow them up. And then blame it on Pakistan. After one year long childish blamegame, it was proved that it was an insider job, supported by government of course. India is a country where mas-murderers are a part of government. Dozens of mosques have been blown up in India in the 21st century, who is doing that?

And then there are Christian burnings goingon in Orissa & other places.

Most of the terrorists arrested and shot dead have been identified to be pakistanis through their own confessions.

You dont exactly think before you re-hash propaganda. How does anybody identify a deadbody as Pakistani? It cant be done even with DNA analysis. Yes, one guy has been caught, but it seems Indian government knew he was Pakistani even before they caught him.

India is a rising economic power, and poverty is disappearing by leaps and bounds in India.

Yup, leaps & bounds....on all four feet
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7557107.stm

Penury striken muslims, raped dalits, burned christians, people eating rats .... India is worse than Burkina Faso in Hunger index. 800 million people live on less than 2 dollars a day. Human rights are as extinct as Dinosours. And elites are going to the moon.

In the words of Chidambaram 'ghettoisation, social boycott, discrimination in employment and blurring of lines between the state and religion as witnessed in Gujarat' ......... "out of the hopelessness and despair of the Muslim community -- and if not addressed firmly -- the Christian tribal communities too will rise new waves of terror,"

This has more to do with islamic society's intolerance of anyone different from them.

So how many hindus are burnt in India/Pakistan every year?

Why are RAW terrorists being sent to Pakistan for terrorism? Why are Indians supporting BLA & Mahsood Taliban? How much of Bangladesh's water hasbeen diverted? Why does India supports regime change in Maldives & LTTE in Srilanka? Even the hindu state of Nepal doesnt like Indian influence.

Indian gove isnt Islamic ... right?

The terrorist bomb blasts in assam, which occured for the first time last month, has been identified as being that of the islamic terrorist organisation huji.

There are dozens of separatist movements going on in that region. Every group blows a few bombs every month. So what about Arunachal, Mezoram, Meghalaya, Nagaland, you cant blame everything on Islam. More people are being killed in Indian northeast than northwest Kashmir.

Naxalites belong to all religions and castes, and to say that they are ruling 40-55% is preposterous.

Naxalites mainly belong to lower cast people. Yes they do sometimes change their religion because hindus consider them untouchable.

They are only active in chattisgarh and adjoining parts, and due to stiff action by security forces against them , their movement has now been crippled to a large extent, and many of them have surrendered and returned back to the mainstream.

Get real. They are active from (occupied) Sikkam in north east to Maharashtra/Karnataka in south west. Manmohan calls them most dangerous securiy threat. Ajit Roval, former Director of the Intelligence Bureau had earlier stated that Naxal activity affects approximately 40 per cent of the country’s landmass. Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand, Orissa, Bihar, and Madhya Pradesh.....they are allover the place.

To kill naxals, security forces hire professional murderers who kill for fun. Another reason why Naxals keep on expanding.

The ruling head of India is a Sikh.

Indian tokenism knows no bounds

And the so-called dravidian parties of the south are sharing power at the centre and are themselves ruling the country. They are the government.

And still in an uneasy relationship

And where were your concern when islamic extremists were butchering millions of non-muslims all over the world.

Millions !!! hey there isnt any proof they were a part of controlled demolition of WTC. Quarter of the Arabs who supposedly were controlling "the planes" were later found undead.

Millions of muslims themselves were killed by islamic extremists in shia-sunni-ahmediya-mohajir riots, and also among wars among themselves.

No, they werernt. If you show me there was a shia-sunni warfare going on in Iraq before US hordes invaded it, I might change my mind.

Just in the liberation of Bangladesh, millions of innocent muslims and hindus in Bangladesh were killed by the pakistanis, which is one of the greatest genocides of the 20th century, and which was conveniently overlooked by their ally

Zeros are cheap. Is there any evidence that those "tens of thousands" who died werent because of hindu gangs from India. Are you sure Indra was jubilant over "sinking two nation theory in bay of Bengal" for no good reason?

Yes, a lot of blame does go to Pakistan, but who was supporting that insurgency?

[farhan]

Originally Posted by Alex P

But, Taking places hostage... Like I was listening to a bit of it as I passed a radio lol... They took some Jewish buildings hostage.... How does that help stop the things that have happened?

edit..

Update: BBC NEWS | UK | Briton killed in Mumbai is named

If you had said this a year ago, I would have agreed with you. In the last few months, I have read some interesting history. IN the days when British thought its their "basic human right" to drug China, Chinese unable to retaliate to the mighty British military, started killing common Britishers.

Blacks of South Africa were also called terrorist (I wont go into its details since I haven't read much). Israel & Bangladesh are two countries made by terrorism (well, so is USA, but that's old history).

It might be wrong, it might be bad, but it aint futile. To be exact, its inevitable, its karma. Anybody who wants to colonise the world should always expect this.

[farhan]

Originally Posted by enlightenment

Yet, to many Muslims who strap explosives to themselves, and give their own lives to murder innocent civilians, they are not inciting violence by means of lies and propaganda, in their worldview, they are doing a noble and hionourable thing.

For as long as we produce sects and individuals who think that way, we will always have this kind of violence.

That is why understanding the psyche is an important step toward a long term solution.

You forgot to add "according to western media, academia & politicians (the non-militant wing of western militarism)" in the begining of your post.

Palestinians started blowing themselves up after Israelis started killing them. Chechens started blowing themselves up after Russians started killing them. They would have done it even if they were atheists. If americans can kill afghanis, why cant an afghani kill americans?

When people are unable to kill murderers sitting in armoured vehicles, they kill people sitting outside it. And these armoured-murderers dont have any right to tell others what is right or wrong. You want to believe its because of Koran, & not because of some holy secular "freedom/democracy" nonsense, then thats the real problematic psyche.