Muslim Religion

[mirrorinthefog]

Dear Friend,

Thank you for your reply.

What happens, then, when the roles are for some reason reversed?

[Friend]

Originally Posted by mirrorinthefog

Dear Friend,

Thank you for your reply.

What happens, then, when the roles are for some reason reversed?

my friend mirrorinthefog
Generally ,For social and psychological reasons it is better for the children to be looked after by their mother than by their father .Usually men looks to the family issues differently than women so, the man have important role in his family and children life ,he give them support to be strong specially his sons to protect themselves from any threat ,while the woman give her children the ability to be sentimental with each other and with others, also she can bear the behaviour of the children ,and the physical structure of her body give her the ability to look after the children like feed them naturally .

sometimes for some reason man compel to take the role of woman but , this may difficult for both he and his children as they grow up children will look to the society and deal with their life issues differently if the influence of mother was missing.

forgive me if I could not explain my idea for you .

[Faithfulservant]

Friend

"women relate to the family and children more than men .Also the Psychological structure of the women different from the men ,women usually more sentiment than men ,so it's difficult to many of women (not all) to answer questions for public or to argue men in certain subjects ."

I agree on this point. Women have the tendency to react out of emotion rather than thought or instinct. But women have the ability to see things from a different perspective than men. My faith teaches that women should not be leaders over men and I agree. It goes against their natures. That does not mean however that they dont all have purposes in life to edify God and Church. Thats for another discussion.

My question to you is.. Is it uncommon for women to discuss religious faith and doctorine with men in your culture? If a woman wanted to discuss religious differences with you would you discuss it with her?

Faithful Servant

[thipps]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Salaam all,


since the topic has been raised, albeit, obliquely, i'd like to bring it to the fore, if i may.

my Muslim friends, males in particular, why are women not allowed to Recite?

Brother Vajradhara, Assalam-o-Alaikum
First of all,your question is not very clear. You have not specified the context of the recitation. Recitation of the Quran is done outside of salaah as well. So, if you are talking about outside of salaah, the answer is that all Muslims, men and women, are not only allowed, they are equally encouraged to do it. If you are speaking in the context of salaah, then please make your question a bit more clear.

Hope this answers your question.

[thipps]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Friend

"women relate to the family and children more than men .Also the Psychological structure of the women different from the men ,women usually more sentiment than men ,so it's difficult to many of women (not all) to answer questions for public or to argue men in certain subjects ."

I agree on this point. Women have the tendency to react out of emotion rather than thought or instinct. But women have the ability to see things from a different perspective than men. My faith teaches that women should not be leaders over men and I agree. It goes against their natures. That does not mean however that they dont all have purposes in life to edify God and Church. Thats for another discussion.

My question to you is.. Is it uncommon for women to discuss religious faith and doctorine with men in your culture? If a woman wanted to discuss religious differences with you would you discuss it with her?

Faithful Servant

Dear Faithfulservant, Assalam-o-Alaikum,
First of all, please do not confuse culture with Islamic Law (Shariah). These are not necessarily the same thing and this should be avoided if one is to understand Islam. If one insists on a culture-based answer, then the answers are beyond the scope of this discussion. Ill assume you meant in Islam rather in 'your culture'.
Islam puts no limit or restriction on women being scholars. There are many female scholars but the reasons why male scholars are more has been explained by another brother. so, i will skip that part. I will give you one short example. Aishah(May God be pleased with her), the wife of the Prophet Mohammad(peace be upon him), taught 80 scholars... she was a scholar of the scholars. There are many other examples from Islam's history as well but i feel this one example is enough as far as your question is concerned. And yes, there are women scholars even now. I have seen them speak many times. I will not give an example of a female scholar from the middle eastern countries or sub-continent as i think you will not know the name and it will be difficult for you to confirm. The name that comes to mind is Aminah Assilmi. She was a baptist and reverted to Islam and now gives lectures to men and women both. I have seen a few of her lectures on video & I liked her thinking. Muslims must respect all scholars, period. The question of being man or woman is not relevant.
now, regarding your first question, the answer is: no, it is not forbidden for women to discuss religious matters with men. There are many examples of this as well but the answer is getting too long as it is, so hopefully this will be enough. Again, your question is leaning towards specific cultures rather than Islam itself. and again, the answer is beyond the scope of this forum as there is not one culture. What Islam says about the matter is enough.
Your second question is a personal one & again, there will be varying answers according to the individual. But as far as Islam goes, it does not put any restriction on such discussion as it only creates better understanding. Women are a part of society and obviously it would be foolish to ignore thier point of view. Now, if anyone wants to ignore what islam teaches, it is thier personal behaviour and doesnt reflect on Islam as a religion as everyone has a free will and they will give an account of thier deeds to thier Lord.

Hope this answers your question.

[Vajradhara]

Salaam Friend,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Friend

Who told you that women not allowed to recite ???

several Muslims have told me that women are not allowed to Recite because their voices may stir the passion of men.

[Vajradhara]

Salaam thipps,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by thipps

Brother Vajradhara, Assalam-o-Alaikum

i'm not a brother but thank you for the greeting!

First of all,your question is not very clear. You have not specified the context of the recitation. Recitation of the Quran is done outside of salaah as well.

my apologies. i suppose that i mean to be asking are women allowed to perform the Call to Prayer and are women allowed to lead the Prayer in the mosque. i apologize for not using the proper terms, please bear with me

[mirrorinthefog]

Hi Friend,

Originally Posted by Friend

sometimes for some reason man compel to take the role of woman but , this may difficult for both he and his children as they grow up children will look to the society and deal with their life issues differently if the influence of mother was missing.

How do you mean? What issues might they look at differently? Could you be more specific?

[Friend]

Originally Posted by mirrorinthefog

Hi Friend,



How do you mean? What issues might they look at differently? Could you be more specific?

Al Salaamu Alyckum

I think it is clear for all that woman looks to the life differently than man . I mean both man and woman use their mind and their heart to deal with life affair but it's relatively issue. Generally woman depend on her heart more than her mind, while man depend on his mind more than heart .So to reach the balance point you must put each one in his or her natural position.I hope this can answer your question .

[Friend]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Friend

"women relate to the family and children more than men .Also the Psychological structure of the women different from the men ,women usually more sentiment than men ,so it's difficult to many of women (not all) to answer questions for public or to argue men in certain subjects ."

I agree on this point. Women have the tendency to react out of emotion rather than thought or instinct. But women have the ability to see things from a different perspective than men. My faith teaches that women should not be leaders over men and I agree. It goes against their natures. That does not mean however that they dont all have purposes in life to edify God and Church. Thats for another discussion.

My question to you is.. Is it uncommon for women to discuss religious faith and doctorine with men in your culture? If a woman wanted to discuss religious differences with you would you discuss it with her?

Faithful Servant

Al Salaamu Alyckum Faithfulservant



you ask me about culture not about Islamic rules ,it is different we have many culture in Islamic countries ,Muslims now about 1/5 of the world population.but about me my culture is coincide with Islamic rules and it is common for women to discuss religious and doctrine with men .

Actually ,I'm Muslim woman and I discuss religious differences with any one .

[mirrorinthefog]

Thank you for your reply, Friend.

I understand and respect your opinion.

What I don't quite agree with is the fact that, frequently, conventional gender roles are automatically assigned to human beings and their "inclinations" determined without regard to each individual's temperment. I see nothing wrong with a woman tending to her family, but I know many men who do better in this role than women, and women who are better at providing for and supporting their families when compared to men.

Whether or not physiologically they are equiped for something or not, human beings don't always behave as we expect them to. (For example, we might claim that one person may be inclined to be a good athlete because he comes from a long line of physically fit, athletic people, but that doesn't necessarily mean he will be athletic as well.) It can be dangerous to assume that a person should put his or her priorities in a predefined hierarchy based on where, how, and in what body they were born. The same is done in the West, I believe, but more succinctly...we put people in categories without even thinking about it. Either way it can be very harmful if the person's own prefernces are not taken into account.

Conventional methods are fine and good, when and where applicable. But in my humble opinion, they cannot always meet the needs of contemporary society, where roles are not so clearly defined, when the ideas are left as is and not improved upon to meet current demands.

Just my two cent's worth

[Faithfulservant]

thipps

Originally Posted by thipps

Dear Faithfulservant, Assalam-o-Alaikum,
First of all, please do not confuse culture with Islamic Law (Shariah). These are not necessarily the same thing and this should be avoided if one is to understand Islam. If one insists on a culture-based answer, then the answers are beyond the scope of this discussion. Ill assume you meant in Islam rather in 'your culture'.
Islam puts no limit or restriction on women being scholars. There are many female scholars but the reasons why male scholars are more has been explained by another brother. so, i will skip that part. I will give you one short example. Aishah(May God be pleased with her), the wife of the Prophet Mohammad(peace be upon him), taught 80 scholars... she was a scholar of the scholars. There are many other examples from Islam's history as well but i feel this one example is enough as far as your question is concerned. And yes, there are women scholars even now. I have seen them speak many times. I will not give an example of a female scholar from the middle eastern countries or sub-continent as i think you will not know the name and it will be difficult for you to confirm. The name that comes to mind is Aminah Assilmi. She was a baptist and reverted to Islam and now gives lectures to men and women both. I have seen a few of her lectures on video & I liked her thinking. Muslims must respect all scholars, period. The question of being man or woman is not relevant.
now, regarding your first question, the answer is: no, it is not forbidden for women to discuss religious matters with men. There are many examples of this as well but the answer is getting too long as it is, so hopefully this will be enough. Again, your question is leaning towards specific cultures rather than Islam itself. and again, the answer is beyond the scope of this forum as there is not one culture. What Islam says about the matter is enough.
Your second question is a personal one & again, there will be varying answers according to the individual. But as far as Islam goes, it does not put any restriction on such discussion as it only creates better understanding. Women are a part of society and obviously it would be foolish to ignore thier point of view. Now, if anyone wants to ignore what islam teaches, it is thier personal behaviour and doesnt reflect on Islam as a religion as everyone has a free will and they will give an account of thier deeds to thier Lord.

Hope this answers your question.

I apologize for my ignorance. Im on this forum because I would like to learn more about your faith. Alot of people never knew about Islam until recently and there is a general belief that the culture of people in the middle east was based on Islam. I am happy to know that Allah does not teach men to abuse women. As a Christian I am familiar with being persecuted by others out of ignorance and fear of my faith. After 9/11 there has been a lot of hostility and distrust towards muslims and I will admit that I have also felt the distrust and fear. Im grateful to you for clearing this up for me because it has shown me the errors of my thinking.

Faithful Servant

[Faithfulservant]

Friend

Originally Posted by Friend

Al Salaamu Alyckum Faithfulservant



you ask me about culture not about Islamic rules ,it is different we have many culture in Islamic countries ,Muslims now about 1/5 of the world population.but about me my culture is coincide with Islamic rules and it is common for women to discuss religious and doctrine with men .

Actually ,I'm Muslim woman and I discuss religious differences with any one .

The reason for my question If you would discuss religious matters with a woman is because I am a Christian woman. We have had many discussion on our religious beliefs in the past few days and I did not want to think that my being a woman would change things. Thank you for clearing up some of my ignorance.

Faithful Servant

[Faithfulservant]

mirrorinthefog

Originally Posted by mirrorinthefog

Thank you for your reply, Friend.

I understand and respect your opinion.

What I don't quite agree with is the fact that, frequently, conventional gender roles are automatically assigned to human beings and their "inclinations" determined without regard to each individual's temperment. I see nothing wrong with a woman tending to her family, but I know many men who do better in this role than women, and women who are better at providing for and supporting their families when compared to men.

Whether or not physiologically they are equiped for something or not, human beings don't always behave as we expect them to. (For example, we might claim that one person may be inclined to be a good athlete because he comes from a long line of physically fit, athletic people, but that doesn't necessarily mean he will be athletic as well.) It can be dangerous to assume that a person should put his or her priorities in a predefined hierarchy based on where, how, and in what body they were born. The same is done in the West, I believe, but more succinctly...we put people in categories without even thinking about it. Either way it can be very harmful if the person's own prefernces are not taken into account.

Conventional methods are fine and good, when and where applicable. But in my humble opinion, they cannot always meet the needs of contemporary society, where roles are not so clearly defined, when the ideas are left as is and not improved upon to meet current demands.

Just my two cent's worth

I agree with you when you say that its not always reasonable to apply gender roles in todays society.. for economic or social reasons.

Tell me if Im wrong but I believe that Christianity and Islam share the belief that God assigned men and women their roles during creation. Even though Eve committed the first sin, God placed the blame on Adam because Eve listened to the serpent and acted with her emotions whereas Adam should have used his mind and reasoned that the act was wrong.

I think that the two faiths also share the belief that women should not be leaders over men for the purpose of balance in the relationship between the two. I know there is a lot of debate over this issue in christianity because women believe that their liberation means that they are the same as men.. confusing their right as being equals to men with the natural predisposition for being softer and more emotional.. nurturers.

Faithful Servant

[thipps]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Salaam thipps,

thank you for the post.


i'm not a brother but thank you for the greeting!


my apologies. i suppose that i mean to be asking are women allowed to perform the Call to Prayer and are women allowed to lead the Prayer in the mosque. i apologize for not using the proper terms, please bear with me

Sister Vajradhara, Assalam-o-Alaikum,

Yes, i have understood your question now. The topic of 'women in islam' is, like most, so wide that one can go on for days. I think it is in the interest of all here that the general concept regarding men & women in Islam be explained (Ill get to your question specifically at the end). Yes, the post will be long but hopefully worth it.


An important thing to note is that Islam believes in equality of men and women – ‘Equality’ does not mean ‘Identicality’. One must accept that they are different.

Suppose: out of all the students in a classroom, two students ‘A’ & ‘B’, both come out first in an examination - Both secure 80% marks.

When you analyze the question paper, the question paper has 3 questions, each carrying 10 marks.


In Q# 1, student ‘A’ got 9 out of 10, and student ‘B’ got 7 out of 10. So, in Q# 1 student ‘A’ was higher than student ‘B’.

In Q# 2, student ‘A’ got 7 out of 10 and student ‘B’ got 9 out of 10. Thus, Student ‘B’ was higher than student ‘A’.

In Q# 3, both of them got 8 out of 10; both were equal.


So, when we add up the marks of all the questions, both student ‘A’ and ‘B’ got 24 out of 30 i.e. 80%.

In short, student ‘A’ and student ‘B’ are overall equal.

In some question, ‘A’ is higher than ‘B’, in some question ‘B’ is higher than ‘A’, in some both are equal.


In the same fashion, taking the example that since Allah has given man more physical strength – Suppose, a thief enters the house, will the man say, ‘I believe in women’s rights’ - will the man tell his mother, his sister and his daughter, to go and fight the thief?’

No, but natural he’ll fight him. If required they may interfere but, under normal circumstances, since Allah has given man more physical strength, he will have to go and tackle the thief [You can make up your own example/scenario if you like]. So here, in physical strength, man is one degree higher than the woman.


Lets take another example where it comes to giving respect to the parents. The children are supposed to respect the mother 3 times more than the father. Please see the following hadith.


Narrated by Abu Huraira:

A man came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Who is more entitled to be treated with the best companionship by me?" The Prophet said, "Your mother." The man said, "Who is next?" The Prophet said, "Your mother." The man further said, "Who is next?" The Prophet said, "Your mother." The man asked for the fourth time, "Who is next?" The Prophet said, "Your father."

[Vol. 8, Book 73 (Good Manners and Form), Hadith# 2]


(Note: Hopefully the men will not start saying now that Islam treats men badly and maybe now I might have to give details on ‘Men’s rights in Islam’ )


Anyway, here the women have one degree higher than the men.

Thus, similar to the example of the two students stated above, Islam believes in equality, not identicality between men and women. They are overall equal in Islam. If you understand this, then specific situations are much easier to understand. Please keep the example in your mind and then, Inshallah [God-Willing], you will understand why out of necessity and practicality, the following rulings are followed. Now regarding your question:


It is not prescribed for women to recite the Azaan [Call to Prayer] and/or Iqaamah [i.e. reciting half the Azaan as an indication that the salaah is going to begin] as it is for men. If a woman does recite the Azaan and Iqaamah, it may be one of the three following scenarios:


1. She recites the Azaan and Iqaamah for a group of men only, or for a mixed group of men & women. This is not prescribed in Islam and her Azaan and Iqaamah for a group of men do not count.

2. She recites them for a group of women only.

3. Or she recites them for herself when she is alone.


It is permissible for her to recite the Azaan for a group of women or for herself but it is not like the case with men in terms of requirement. For men, it is more emphatically required, whereas for women, if they give the Azaan it is permissible, and if they do not, it is also permissible. If a woman does recite the Azaan, she must keep her voice low and make it just loud enough for her companions to hear.


If a woman says the Iqaamah for herself or for a group of women, that is better and is closer to what is mustahabb [desirable/recommended], but if she does not do that, the prayer is still valid.


With regard to a woman leading the prayers and acting as an Imaam, one of the two following scenarios may apply:

1. A woman leading men, or a mixed group of men and women. It is not correct for a woman to lead men in prayers at all, regardless of whether it is a fard (obligatory) prayer or a naafil (supererogatory) prayer. In salaah, we adopt several postures, like Qayam, Ruku and Sujud i.e. standing, bowing and prostrations, respectively. Now, if a woman leads the congregational prayers (only men or a gathering of men and women) and does these various actions in front of the men, it will cause ‘disturbances’ in the prayers. During prayer, we are supposed to concentrate on God, not on the women.

2. A woman leading women in prayer. It is mustahabb for women to pray together (in congregation) when they get together in a place. One of them should lead the others, but she should stand with them in the middle of the row. It is permissible and correct for a woman to lead other women in prayer.

The evidence for the second point is as follows:

Al-Nawawi said: The Sunnah is, for a woman who is leading other women in prayer, to stand in the middle of the row because of the reports which state that ‘A'ishah and Umm Salamah (May Allah be pleased with them) led other women and they stood in the midst of them. [Al-Majmoo’ Sharh al-Muhadhdab, vol. 4, p. 192]

This was the action of the Sahaabi women, and the more correct view is that this action of the Sahaabi women is to be taken as proof because there is no text narrated to the contrary. Furthermore, if a woman is leading only one other woman in prayer, she should stand as a man stands with one other man.


Hope this answers your question.