My Christianity questions.

[China Cat Sunflower]

On the authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum. This is part of the Wikepedia entry: "Josephus on Jesus."

It is significant that Origen, writing in about 240, fails to mention the Testimonium Flavianum, even though he does mention the less significant reference to Jesus as brother of James, which occurs later in Antiquities of the Jews (xx 9). Origen also states that Josephus was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ" (Cels, i 47) "he did not accept Jesus as Christ" (Comm. Matt., x 17), and "he says nothing of the wonderful deeds that our Lord did" (Stromateis, ii 2) but the testimonium declares Jesus to be Christ and claims that he did "wonderful works". Starting in the 17th century, this has given rise to the suggestion presented by Protestant philologists that the Testimonium Flavianum did not exist in the earliest copies, or did not exist in the present form.

Many modern historians reject the passage as an interpolation, on other grounds, for several reasons inherent in the text. In its context, passage 3.2 runs directly into passage 3.4, and thus the thread of continuity, of "sad calamities," is interrupted by this passage. The context, without the testimonium passage, reads:
So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition. About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder, and certain shameful practices happened about the temple of Isis that was at Rome. The passage 3.3 also fails a standard test for authenticity, in that it contains vocabulary not otherwise used by Josephus, according to the Complete Concordance to Flavius Josephus, edited by K. H. Rengstorff, 2002. It is also argued that "He was [the] Christ" can only be read as a profession of faith. If so, this could not be right, as Josephus was not a Christian; he characterized his patron Vespasian as the foretold Messiah.

The deepest concerns about the authenticity of the passage were succinctly expressed by John Dominic Crossan, in The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Peasant (1991, ISBN 0060616296): "The problem here is that Josephus' account is too good to be true, too confessional to be impartial, too Christian to be Jewish." Three passages stood out: "if it be lawful to call him a man … He was [the] Christ … for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him." These seem directly to address Christological debates of the early 4th century. Consequently, most secular historians (and even many Christian scholars) dismiss the Testimonium as an interpolation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephu...nium_Flavianum

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

On the authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum. This is part of the Wikepedia entry: "Josephus on Jesus."



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephu...nium_Flavianum

Chris

What it does say is that was a Jesus, brother of James (obviously there was some importance to acknowledging two rather "obscure" individuals in a very tempetuous time... and to remember them decades later, how ironic.

Of course the secular is not going to acknowledge some one as God. But, my friend, the author (s) acknowledge the existence of...

Let's see what the chronicles of "Pilot" have to say on the matter.

v/r

Q

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

What it does say is that was a Jesus, brother of James (obviously there was some importance to acknowledging two rather "obscure" individuals in a very tempetuous time... and to remember them decades later, how ironic.

Of course the secular is not going to acknowledge some one as God. But, my friend, the author (s) acknowledge the existence of...

Let's see what the chronicles of "Pilot" have to say on the matter.

v/r

Q

Are you referring to the apocrypal Acta Pilati?

What's intrigueing to me is that when you remove all biographical stuff on Jesus with questionable authenticity you're left with almost nothing. So, how can we explain the Jesus phenomenon? I mean, on the one hand we have almost nothing verifiable to go on historically, but on the other we have this huge phenomenon of the influence of someone or something called Jesus. It's a real mystery.

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Are you referring to the apocrypal Acta Pilati?

What's intrigueing to me is that when you remove all biographical stuff on Jesus with questionable authenticity you're left with almost nothing. So, how can we explain the Jesus phenomenon? I mean, on the one hand we have almost nothing verifiable to go on historically, but on the other we have this huge phenomenon of the influence of someone or something called Jesus. It's a real mystery.

Chris

Phenominal isn't it. We have historical reference that He existed, and that is it. But then we have this wonderful series of books that pre-empt his arrival, present His arrival, and proclude His arrival, yet still the world only marks his passage as a small dot of time, then moves on...yet He never dissappeared from our radar scope. He just got bigger and bigger and bigger, until 1/3rd of the world knows of Him 2000 years later, and as many profess to follow his teachings...

things that make you go Hmmm.

v/r

Q

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Phenominal isn't it. We have historical reference that He existed, and that is it. But then we have this wonderful series of books that pre-empt his arrival, present His arrival, and proclude His arrival, yet still the world only marks his passage as a small dot of time, then moves on...yet He never dissappeared from our radar scope. He just got bigger and bigger and bigger, until 1/3rd of the world knows of Him 2000 years later, and as many profess to follow his teachings...

things that make you go Hmmm.

v/r

Q

Another interesting thing to me, considering the "old within the new" concept of the connection between Old and New Testaments, is trying to figure out what constitutes the main story, and what is pre-logue, prologue, and, essentially, appendix material.

I think that the story really begins in in the books of Kings, specifically right here in 2nd Kings 22:8:

And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it.

I think that the story ends with the "great commission."

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Another interesting thing to me, considering the "old within the new" concept of the connection between Old and New Testaments, is trying to figure out what constitutes the main story, and what is pre-logue, prologue, and, essentially, appendix material.

I think that the story really begins in in the books of Kings, specifically right here in 2nd Kings 22:8:



I think that the story ends with the "great commission."

Chris

I think the story begins with Genesis, and hasn't ended yet...

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I think the story begins with Genesis, and hasn't ended yet...

I view everything prior to the "discovery" of the Book of the Law as foundational mythology. IOW, real, historically verifiable Judaism begins at this point. It is the genesis of the state of Judah and it's efforts at creating a homogenized cultural identity, under a monotheistic theology, administered by a priestly elite. This is the BIG IDEA.

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I view everything prior to the "discovery" of the Book of the Law as foundational mythology. IOW, real, historically verifiable Judaism begins at this point. It is the genesis of the state of Judah and it's efforts at creating a homogenized cultural identity, under a monotheistic theology, administered by a priestly elite. This is the BIG IDEA.

Chris

This is not the Judeasm forum...

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

This is not the Judeasm forum...

Which hat are you wearing when you say that?

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Which hat are you wearing when you say that?

Chris

Please Chris...don't do that. You know exactly where I stand.

That is almost rude...

[China Cat Sunflower]

It was an honest question Q.

Look, anything I ever write is arguable. I don't waste time asking rhetorical questions, but anything I write is just meant to be an accurate representation of what I'm thinking...at that moment. I honestly don't have an axe to grind one way or another vis a vis Christianity, so what you're reading from me is just a momentary statement of opinion based on fascinations and questions I'm persuing. In my experience, there's a really thin space between mostly unquestioning belief and outright detraction in Christian theology. I'm trying to thread that needle.

Chris

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Penguin!

You could look at this the other way and say it is bad that the old lady can’t make it across the road due to poor health and Jesus or God should help heal her, so why don’t they? Even though it isn’t published in the media as we read this now there is children, for no reason really, dying in hospital from cancer and other terminal illnesses. There are people in other countries that are oppressed by politics or other reasons which result in torture and death. I could go on and on with examples couldn’t I but the ratio of evil against good is overwhelming, there is no equal comparison.

I suppose if you view nature as evil, then I can see where you are coming from. A lot of what we see as evil is simply the cycle of life playing along as it should. Humans have managed to carve a niche in that, in nature, and by now we try to circumvent natural process (have been trying for a very long time, but we're getting better at it all the time). We think death is a horrible thing, but death is a part of life. It is through death that we are able to go on to the next level. If you believe reincarnation or rebirth, or if you believe to heaven. What we see as death feeds new life in creation, in nature. There is a time to be born and a time to die. We either accept this reality for what it is, with due reverence for our loved ones who have gone on, or we deny the natural cycle of reality, and see all as evil.

With all respect to you all one of the things I can’t grasp is the haziness of the construction of the bible, it’s something I have tried to understand but have never.

The Jewish testament is in a different order than the Christian OT, but the books are the same. Law, history, poetry and prophecy.

Once Jesus had been crucified and rose again why was it left so long before it was started to be written about and how can scribes (who carried on writing over a period of many years after) be writing the word of God or Jesus?

Scribes merely copy texts. That was the job of an entire class of people. They didn't have copy machines back then, they didn't have printing presses. Everything was copied by hand or not at all.

Do you see all of history as it happens? Can you tell today what will be important in your life to your grandkids 40 years from now? I can't. All I have is my stories and my understanding. When the time comes and my grandkids express interest, I will share my stories with them. I'll remember some, I'll forget some, I'll embellish some. But if someone like Jesus had crossed the path of my life, I think I would remember pretty vividly.

I have been told in the past by many people that Jesus probably was a coloured man with very dark skin

I believe it is Rastafari that promotes this view.

and also the Roman Catholics are the one’s who decided to portray him as a white man with a beard etc as it was what they wanted to perceive him as from then on. Is there any truth in that?

The others answered well. Each culture wants to make the story theirs, to identify with it. So they paint him in their own image.

Mentioning Roman Catholics reminds me of something else I was going to ask. Does the Vatican have artefacts stored that are supposed to be top secret that can prove or disprove the existence of Jesus Christ? It was something I read somewhere in passing but can’t remember where unfortunately.

I have heard unsubstantiated rumors that there is an extensive underground library of things like proceedings from the Inquisition, but nothing like you suggest.

Although I am not attached to any type of religion at the moment and am not sure if I will ever be, I do find a strong sense of peace and calm whenever I enter a church or cathedral and it makes me think about things. Many thanks again for your contributions in answer to my previous questions.

I wish you peace wherever you may find it. Good Luck.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

It was an honest question Q.

Look, anything I ever write is arguable. I don't waste time asking rhetorical questions, but anything I write is just meant to be an accurate representation of what I'm thinking...at that moment. I honestly don't have an axe to grind one way or another vis a vis Christianity, so what you're reading from me is just a momentary statement of opinion based on fascinations and questions I'm persuing. In my experience, there's a really thin space between mostly unquestioning belief and outright detraction in Christian theology. I'm trying to thread that needle.

Chris

Very well. I will tell you what I think. I think there is a core truth to the Bible that cannot be extinguished by time. Two thousand years later and it is still the number one seller. Despite naysayers and sceptics the Bible just keeps getting more popular. No other book has been translated into almost every language known to man. We must ask ourselves why?

Is it because it is a "pipe dream" that people desperately want to believe? Or is there something greater at work?

my thoughts,

v/r

Q

[Penguin]

Many thanks again for your contributions in answer to my questions, much appreciated indeed. The last few posts (that have gone off on a tangient) have confused me a bit and I don't understand them to be honest. But I agree it is difficult to explain why the bible is still the best seller and is always increasing in popularity, a very good point indeed that one.

[wil]

Many thanks again for your contributions in answer to my questions, much appreciated indeed. The last few posts (that have gone off on a tangient) have confused me a bit and I don't understand them to be honest. But I agree it is difficult to explain why the bible is still the best seller and is always increasing in popularity, a very good point indeed that one.

Penguin, often thought in responses to to a thread spawn new thought, which spawns new responses...completely off topic of the original thread...it happens, and often creates an awesome discussion and occasionally derails the the thread...nature of the beast I think.

I think Paul was an amazing marketer...if he were around today he'd give Bill Gates a run for his money... But today we have missionairies following in his footsteps giving away bibles everywhere...and the Gideons insuring there is a bible in every hotel room drawer...Most Christians I know have multiple bibles, gifts from childhood graduations, various interpretations picked up for study, family bibles handed down.. Hard for me to imagine having 5-10 copies of any other book. I don't think it is hard to understand how it became the largest selling book of all time. With the growing number of Muslims in the world and general interest in Islam I think the Koran will be coming on strong...