my few questions

[PluckyAli]

"The death penalty for apostates is false!"
Agreed.

Actually Hadith is more than just a guide.And you should neither follow quran nor hadith blindly.That's what i have to say.

[thipps]

Originally Posted by Staffy

It has not been told to do such a thing in the Al-Quran and nothing should be added onto the religeon...........Hadiths are charicter referances and that is all......They are not to be followed blindly and without referance to the Al-Quran..

salaam,
The first two considerations in Islamic law is the Quran and the Sunnah. The Sunnah explains many things which the Quran states. e.g. exactly how to pray, how much zakat to pay, how many times to go around the kabah etc. etc. The list is endless. When you say "Hadiths are charicter referances", really i dont understand what you are trying to say. Please elaborate. You cannot ignore Hadith just cause you dont like what has been stated. If it is determined to be authentic, then you cannot ignore it. no one is saying to follow blindly but it is unquestionably just as important that we do not make our desires and whims the judge. One cannot reject something just cause someone doesnt like it.
Just as Shiekh Munajjid said that the Muslim should not incline more towards one scholarly opinion rather than another just because it is in accordance with his whims and desires or his reasoning. Rather he has to accept the ruling based on evidence from the Qur’aan and Sunnah. It is essential to put the texts and rulings of sharee’ah before all else.
I request you to read the answer provided (of Sh. Munajjid) by Friend. A hadith from sahih bukhari states clearly that “Whoever changes his religion, put him to death.” [Vol. 9,Book 84 (Dealing with apostates), Hadith#57].
And the 'no compulsion in religion' verse is for those who are outside Islam.
'There is no compulsion in religion', meaning, "Do not force anyone to become Muslim..." [See Tafsir ibn kathir].
If you have time to read more, you can try post #14 and 15 at:
http://www.comparative-religion.com/...ead.php?t=2035
And with Allah lies all guidance.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Friend

I. Halal Method
1. The first three seconds from the time of Islamic slaughter as recorded on the EEG did not show any change from the graph before slaughter , thus indicating that the animal did not feel any pain during or immediately after the incision.
2. For the following 3 seconds, the EEG recorded a condition of deep sleep - unconsciousness. This is due to a large quantity of blood gushing out from the body.
3. After the above mentioned 6 seconds, the EEG recorded zero level, showing no feeling of pain at all.
4. As the brain message ( EEG ) dropped to zero level, the heart was still pounding and the body convulsing vigorously (a reflex action of the spinal cord) driving maximum blood from the body: resulting in hygienic meat for the consumer.

II. Western method by C.B.P. Stunning
1. The animals were apparently unconscious soon after stunning.
2. EEG showed severe pain immediately after stunning.
3. The hearts of the animal stunned by C.B.P. stopped beating earlier as compared to those of the animals slaughtered according to the Halal method resulting in the retention of more blood in the meat. This in turn is unhygienic for the consumer.

It would be interesting to see how this study stands up to peer review - it seems more than a little odd to claim that an animal in the process of being slaughtered with a blade doesn't feel it in the slightest. The comments also do not explain how the interpretations of the EEG readings justified claims of feeling "no pain" as opposed to "extreme pain". Having had the "good fortune" to view a PETA video of cows being stunned, then having their trachae sliced out, yet still managing to stagger around, I'm just a little cynical of any claims regarding issues of pain-free slaughter.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

It would be interesting to see how this study stands up to peer review - it seems more than a little odd to claim that an animal in the process of being slaughtered with a blade doesn't feel it in the slightest. The comments also do not explain how the interpretations of the EEG readings justified claims of feeling "no pain" as opposed to "extreme pain". Having had the "good fortune" to view a PETA video of cows being stunned, then having their trachae sliced out, yet still managing to stagger around, I'm just a little cynical of any claims regarding issues of pain-free slaughter.

i have to agree. this is all a bit bizarre for me. if the animal could speak our language I bet they would say a whole different thing about this.

[dayaa]

hello/salam
brian, bandit and all

well, i don't know, i'm no expert and really it's all a bit disgusting to be honest....worrying.....but i think there might be some truth in those studies. i gave it some thought and comparing to minor injuries i have had myself, for example i have stumbled and grazed my arm against a rough wall and although it is just a scrape it is very painful immediately and for some time.....yet on many occaisions, i have been working in the kitchen using a very fine sharp knife to prepare vegetables for example....and continued quite happily until suddenly i notice blood pouring from my finger. washing it off and inspecting the wound i have often found a nasty, deep slash, but a "clean" cut, and i was totally unaware of having done it till i saw the blood.

to be honest, i find modern western stun/slaughter methods more disturbing than kosher/halal slaughter methods. the idea and explanation i mean (i haven't actually seen it).....although having said that i'm not sure any of it is really very encouraging. becoming vegetarian sounds nice actually....the problem is you really can't beat the system unless you go completely vegan....and that does make life a bit difficult. don't know....still thinking

[Friend]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

It would be interesting to see how this study stands up to peer review - it seems more than a little odd to claim that an animal in the process of being slaughtered with a blade doesn't feel it in the slightest. The comments also do not explain how the interpretations of the EEG readings justified claims of feeling "no pain" as opposed to "extreme pain". Having had the "good fortune" to view a PETA video of cows being stunned, then having their trachae sliced out, yet still managing to stagger around, I'm just a little cynical of any claims regarding issues of pain-free slaughter.

Hi to all

I,Brian ,I think it is very easy to those whom have a biological science or medical background to understand the interpretation of this issue ... however I try to give some explanations regarding your notes .


by a very, very sharp knife (which should be kept like a surgeon’s knife in sharpness and cleanliness, as previously stated by DR Ghulam Khan (UFAW, 1971), a Deep swift cut done instantaneously and quickly to the blood vessels of the neck (the two caroid arteries which carry blood to the brain and head, the two jugular veins which bring blood from the brain back to the heart), the trachea (windpipe) and the oesophagus (gullet), but the central nervous system (the spinal cord) should be kept safe and intact (not cut).
This deep, large cut through all the blood vessels of the neck causes acute blood loss and haemorrhagic shock: we know the blood is under great pressure , especially in the big carotid arteries (systolic pressure ) and at high speed and, according to physical law, the pressure always goes from the high to low resistance - the point of the cut is the scene of low resistance for blood to and from the brain. As we have a fully intact, alive heart, so most of the blood is going to be pumped and poured out instantaneously and quickly under pressure leading to a rapid fallin the blood pressure. Thus depriving the brain of its main source of oxygen and glucose, and with no blood which is necessary to keep the animal alive and functioning and able to deal with any perceptive sensation this leads to anoxia and almost immediate loss of consciousness (anesthetization or “stunning” ). The cerebrospinal fluid pressure falls even more rapidly than the blood pressure because of the jugular veins being cut, and this results in a deep shock and more loss of consciousness.

The animal, at this stage after the cut, is in a stable and quiet state with no movement or any distressed behavior. One would assume, if there was any pain or suffering, it would kick, move or show signs. After this short resting phase, and because the brain is deprived of oxygen and blood due to the huge amount of bleeding, the heartbeats increase in order to increase the flow of blood to the brain and other deprived areas. Tonic and clonic involuntary contractions and convulsions start and occur as automatic physiological reflexes in order to send and push blood up, especially to the brain. These contractions and convulsions are ‘painless’ (not, as the layman would imagine, that the kicking is due to the pain) especially when the animal is already unconscious and still has an intact spinal cord with safe nerve centers to the limbs, muscles and organs. So, we have a huge amount of bleeding from the initial cut then blood loss is continuing with the squeezing pressure of these contractions and convulsions, leading to maximum bleeding-out and less retention of blood in the carcass, giving a better quality of meat [both safer and healthier (this is like direct method of slaughter, “but without stunning”)].

Lord Horder GCVO, MD, FRCP, who explained this type of slaughtering scientifically (and without the use of stunning):

‘The animal loses consciousness immediately. It is difficult to conceive a more painless and rapid mode of death; for a few seconds after the cut is made, the animal makes no movement its body is then convulsed, the convulsive movements continue for about a minute and then cease. The interpretation of this fact is clear: the cut is made by a knife so sharp and so skillfully handled that a state of syncope with its associated unconsciousness follows instantaneously upon the severing of the blood pressure. The movement of the animal which begins at about 90 seconds are epileptiform in nature and are due to the blood-less state of the brain (cerebral ischemia with complete anoxaemia). Sensation has been abolished at the moment of the initial syncope.’

Of course, there have been many other statements by eminent scientists giving the same explanations and conclusions about the direct act of slaughtering such as DR Leonard Hill (1923), Sir Lovatt Evans, Professor Harold Burrow, I M Levingen (1979), Professor F R Bell. Mr. Openshaw, Mr. Hayhurst etc. (Some are quoted, in Impact Magazine 1985).

Let me quote Prof. Leonard Hill, F.R.C.V.S, who strongly believed and expressed his views in his article – that the incision applied in the Ritual Slaughter causes no pain. Any Surgeon today knows that sudden big injuries are not felt at the time of infliction. Pain comes later when the wound is (septic, and) inflamed. Structures beneath the skin apart from isolated sensory nerve endings are insensitive to the knife.

Apart from the clear Divine laws and orders to us, and the clear physiological and scientific evidence, I would like to mention one golden rule in Islam which, again, fits into the perfection of mercy to every individual animal.

The rule states “Any action or method which will definitely lead to some harm damage or suffering is to be rejected or, any action which can be suspected to lead to a prohibited act is also to be rejected (e.g. eating dead animals or consuming blood etc.).So any method of slaughtering which can give us more blood or a dead animal [before the cut (for slaughtering) is made] is rejected”


Two facts are indisputably established by the above Professor:

a) That a big injury such as throat cutting is not felt at the moment of infliction.
b) That the cutting of big arteries in the throat instantly arrests the circulation in the brain and abolishes consciousness.

Prof. Charles Lovett Evans, F.R.C.V.S., has this to say:-

" As anyone who has ever witnessed the act is well aware, the animal lies absolutely still the moment the vessels arc cut, and it is only a minute or so later that asphyxia! convulsions set in. Consciousness we know is lost long before this " .

" On physiological principles, it is clear that when such large vessels are severed the arterial blood pressure falls at once to a very low level, moreover the carotid arteries being severed, much of the blood supply to the brain is immediately lost and the result is immediate loss of consciousness. To consider that the animal suffers pain is, in my opinion, quite absurd. I consider the method to be equal to any ".

Prof. Leonard Hill says that no death could be more merciful, taking into account that the animal unlike man, has no knowledge or fear of impending death. The death is as quiet and merciful as that inflicted on murderers by hanging; to them, of course, the whole of this agony is in the advancing fear of death which is dated and timed and known to the victim.

I hope this can give you some interpretations about my point about Islamic slaughtering .