My lack of faith

[17th Angel]

Hmm interesting post... Sorry I just can't let go of physical(non spiritual) evidence... ;\ It is held with high value in my mind.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Hmm interesting post... Sorry I just can't let go of physical(non spiritual) evidence... ;\ It is held with high value in my mind.

Creation is physical evidence for me. Too much beauty and wonder to ignore it.

[chakraman]

the real question for me is how do i find the truth, and can this even be a positive action or is it more of removing the obstacles to truth and if so what are these. how can i do this if i have faith which does imply a lack of questioning in favour of acceptance.
for me some of the obstacles to truth are desire, fear, laziness and dependance and without understanding these first anything else is jumping ahead of myself. anything i find will be according to and shaped by the parameters of these obstacles. what is found will be according to your desires and this can never be truth. i've got a habit of preaching please excuse, truth is i don't know what you should do, perhaps thats a possible new begining...j...

[chakraman]

just adding a thought -
i watched a vid once where krishnamurti was asking all the teachers from one of the schools how they were going to bring about a new human being. the discussion went on with various teachers putting forward ideas about how they were going to affect a change all of them, effectively pointed out as influencing, shaping according to patterns etc. eventually he pointed out that there is maybe a possibility of help only when first they realise that they don't know what to do and so not knowing you begin.

[Nattering Nabob]

I realized that I’ve never really experienced God myself. I’ve only read about Him, heard about Him, and “witnessed” other people experience Him. I just wanted to hear his voice or feel his presence. I’ve felt like if that actually happened, then my faith would no longer be based on what other people tell me, but on God Himself. So for a few years now, I’ve been praying for this. I read things like “if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.” Then I think “I have opened the door. I have tried so hard. And I get nothing.” I’ve prayed for so many things, and I feel that I haven’t really received any of it.

I was in the same place as you and a small part of me said that I should go out and perform specific acts which would benefit others vice myself...I understood that each act done for others brought me that much closer to God like the steps of a ladder...soon I was spending all day doing things for others and little for myself (the opposite of my normal life!)...this indeed opened my eyes to God and I can tell you that while it was the greatest experience of my life it was also the scariest...to know God is to lose yourself and many (me included) are not ready for that...I have to add that God helped me in my efforts (he motivated me) and I did not put myself aside in favor of others through my own power and I cannot do it now on my own...trust me I've tried and withoput His help I am unable...


I can't tell you how surprised I was (and relieved) to know that there is indeed a very real and specific basis for religion and spirituality...I was also relieved to find that all religions indeed point to the same Deity/reality and that those who do not think this is true haven't seen God and are only going on what others have communicated to them...and for the record I am a member of the Southern Bapist church...

[Francis king]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Thats nice to hear... But it isn't that way obviously for everyone.. The small things I can always logically explain. I want the BIG things to happen. So there is no way I could ever explain why it happened. I just get the feeling this guy is the same... And there is nothing wrong with that, in my belief. I admire more the person who picks and probes and questions and say 'why' alot... than the person who will just roll over and accept what he is told... Good for you Tim...

so, 17th, ur looking for the "thomas", or the "paul" experience... it might still come...

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Francis king

so, 17th, ur looking for the "thomas", or the "paul" experience... it might still come...

I guess... (If I knew what that was...)

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Zagreus

I agree that a story is not alive, but it can help deliver a message. Beside me is a story that a friend shared with me last year, which I looked at again yesterday for the first time since then. It has to do with death, but also with Faith. I don't know where she got, I just printed it out to look at from time to time.

Live abundantly ... be the dog!

A sick man turned to his doctor, as he was preparing to leave the examination room and said, "Doctor, I am afraid to die. Tell me what lies on the other side."

Very quietly, the doctor said, "I don't know."

"You don't know? You, a man of faith, do not know what is on the other side?"

The doctor was holding the handle of the door; on the other side came the sounds of scratching and whining, and as he opened the door, a dog sprang into the room and leaped on him with an eager display of gladness.

Turning to the patient, the doctor said, "Did you notice my dog? He's never been in this room before. He didn't know what was inside. He knew nothing except that his master was here, and when the doop opened, he came running in without fear. I know little of what is on the other side of death, but I do know one thing... I know my Master is there, and that is enough."

~~~~~

There are many things I believe in, without having every seen them, or without having experienced them directly. I do have faith, many times, because others claim the experiences, and have spoken openly about them. Some of these don't even pertain to religion, but when it comes to the existence of a higher power, my reason to doubt has grown so small that I can no longer appeal from a practical point of view.

All I can say, is that the flesh is weak and that sometimes an irrational fear tends to take over. Then I look around, see the evidence that is within, without, and on every side ... and I know to trust, and have Faith.

As wil suggested on another thread, we can go within to the "still, small voice," and lift our question or concern - our search for Faith and guidance - into the light. The answer will come, the prayer will find a response. It's the learning-to-see-it part, which may take a lifetime.

~Zagreus

That is precisely what I am saying Faith is NOT... in my opinion. Most everyone will agree with you. That definition is in the world, it is in Webster, it is in stories, it is in common everyday use by many people, and it is in many churches and mosques, and it is used by science and government to reference religion. I prefer to adhere to what I read Christ said about Faith in the Gospels, and some verses in the Qur'an. The OT also provides many examples. I don't see blind Faith... do you? Pun taken seriously. I think the concept is wrong and it misleads. In the example I had provided a person was blind-folded but the ears were still open and it involves real communication with a real intelligence. An intelligence you might not see, but communication nevertheless. People don't really see each other's intelligence either until there is communication. I don't know your religion Zag, but if it is of the Abrahamic religions then I challenge you to find and show me in the scripture where Faith did not involve real communication.

In Christianity, I look for definition only in the Gospels. In the letters of Paul it probably takes on new definitions.

[Zagreus]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

I don't see blind Faith... do you?

I think you miss the point of the story. Let's recap:

[The dog] knew nothing except that his master was here, and when the doop opened, he came running in without fear.

The point is, the dog DID know something. And the dog knew it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Call it intuition, or perhaps the ability to use senses that are beyond the physical world.

Animals of all types display evidence of sensory ranges that humans do not share, but they *also* evidence precisely what you have focused on ... the ability to*communicate* through more than just yelps and meows, in a very real way. And how much greater are we, than our animal brethren!

Blind faith, to me, is exactly that. It does not actually behold something; it simply *hopes* that in fact there *is* something to behold! It takes on an added dimension if and when a person *has* actually experienced the object of faith before. There can be a moment of revelation, of direct spiritual experience, but it is up to us to continue looking toward the light ... even when we cannot experience that light shining as directly or as brightly as before.

To me, THIS is Faith. It is therefore based on something very REAL, in one's own experience, and does not hinge entirely upon the testimony of others - wherever, and however, that testimony has been recorded. I do not necessarily have to go on a vision quest in order to obtain an experience of the Divine. All that is necessary is to open myself, and my perceptions, to the world around me ... and to seek the light of understanding, which God provides.

The Quakers, or Society of Friends, go about things much in this way, including at their Meetings. And that appeals to me a good bit more than gold candlesticks and crucifixes, pageantry and dogma. If all this religious mumbo-jumbo, and the unlikeliest of doctrines is what we're supposed to have faith about ... then I may as well preach the good gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. At least that's something we can smile about, and all acknowledge as absurd, without offending good common sense and reason.

The problems enter in, as I see it, when we're asked to accept pure absurdity as "fact." While some people question the very existence of various religious figures (prophets, saviors, etc.), we can at least look to historical records to help support our case, in either direction. Extraordinary claims, however, require extraordinary evidence ... keeping in mind that what was extraordinary, heretical or impossible in a day gone by, is today commonplace and taken for granted!

Once ET has walked on the earth along with our own humanity, say for a few years or so, even the diehard skeptics will have to change their tune. And imagine if some of the holy figures from the world's various religions are finally permitted to "set the record straight" (as I believe they have already attempted, even numerous times). This may pertain to everything from their origin to the circumstances of their death, as well as the very purpose for their mission on earth. Here again, sooner or later, even the diehard "believer" - or man of faith - from the respective religion, will be forced to concede to the word of authority.

It's like arguing to Pythagoras that A squared + B squared does NOT equal C squared. Even young children learn the Pythagorean Theorem, and its truth is a constant one - undebatable, unchanging. But just look at how religious doctrines change and evolve over the centuries. Our minds, our understanding, our knowledge and even our ability to reason, GROWS. And with growth, we come to know more about ourselves, each other, and the world we live in. To suggest that our understanding of Deity, or matters Spiritual, is somehow static - frozen in time at any particular moment in world history, however distant or recent - is quite preposterous. It's not called Progressive Revelation for giggles and grins.

So all this faith that we're supposed to have regarding things that now seem to us absurd, or unlikely ... some of this may one day present itself in such a way, that the blind faith of yesterday becomes the commonplace knowledge and practical wisdom of today! Other things will be disproved, and those who preached blind faith will feel rather foolish indeed. But my real point is that even if you're going out on a limb, you do not simply keep walking with no intention to stop whatsoever. The limb will get smaller, and your weight will remain the same, and eventually, the limb will snap, or else it will simply bend and you will fall right off.

You don't have to be a gnostic in order to base your faith upon knowledge, and upon real, solid experience. But you may find that it *does* require the shelving of a lot of religious mumbo-jumbo ... which is contrary to sound logic and common sense. This is not atheism, nor is it pure agnosticism. It just means admitting how little we really know, and trusting that the powers that be will guide us to increased understanding - if we are sincerely looking, and not afraid of what we might find there. But that's TWO big "ifs."

~Zag

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Hmm interesting post... Sorry I just can't let go of physical(non spiritual) evidence... ;\ It is held with high value in my mind.

I know a lot of people feel this way, and I hate to say it, but it is partially one's perspective that must change to see God in the physical evidence. One must be open to seeing what is there.

My mother nearly died of an unidentified disease when I was a child. The doctors gave up on her, and we were so poor that we had few options but for her to go home. We prayed. She recovered. On other occasions, we couldn't pay our rent or electricity and prayed. The bills were paid anonymously.

Now, for me, having already decided that God exists, this was further physical evidence of God's existence. For others, who are determined not to be open to the possibility of God existing, they would explain these things away by chance, coincidence, and the like.

It's possible to do that with nearly anything.

I have always had a mystical bent, and experienced the spiritual realm so strongly, so much like everyday life, that to me it is inconceivable to deny it. But I have shared some of these experiences with atheist friends who are determined to chalk such things up to my own mind, to chance, or to imaginings. We see what we allow ourselves to see. I actually know of a few people who, dying from terminal illnesses, experienced angels coming to them. They staunchly remained atheist and insisted the angels were their own minds degenerating into wishful thinking. So not even direct mystical experience is enough proof for someone who is determined to disavow it.

I think that faith is a lot like love. It isn't about feelings and experiences and proof so much as it is really about a choice and follow-through. When we fall out of love with someone, we can either say that we must have been mistaken about them, or we can come to the conclusion that love is really about choice and action (a verb) rather than a feeling we have (a noun). I see faith the same way. Faith is ultimately a choice to follow God, to act in a way that is trusting God and His teachings, whether or not we feel His presence at the moment.

Even as a mystic, I would say that if you put your own feelings and experiences as the basis of your faith, you are bound to a roller coaster. Some days you feel God in everyone and everything, the next day you're struggling with everyday life and you feel distant from God. A better path is to base faith on a choice to trust God, and act consistently in accordance with it whether you feel like it or not. Over time, it's amazing how your feelings and experiences come more and more to be in alignment with your choice to have faith. This is like how acting loving in a marriage when you don't *feel* like you're in love can reignite the feelings of love.

Though I have had many experiences that I would say were proof of God to me, it has to be my choice to remember them when I'm feeling distant from God. It has to be my choice to turn to God each day, whether I'm feeling faithful or not. It has to be my choice to put myself second, and others first (and in so doing, put God first). The more I do this, the more God grants me experience of Him/Her/It. I begin to see God in everything more consistently, and I see evidence of God all around me, and deep within me.

But we have to make the choice to trust. We can seek and not trust, and that won't help us. Just as in a marriage that is difficult we can pray for being in love again, but not begin acting in love, because we don't trust. We want someone else to do it for us- to give us love rather than us acting love. So it is with God. We can ask all we like for proof, but it's basically asking God to do it for us- to give us faith rather than us acting out faith. But it is in the action that we find purpose. When we act in love in a marriage, no matter how difficult, we find reasons to love the person. When we act in faith, we find reasons to have faith in God.

[Tariki]

cymbalblade,

I seems to me that at some point we have to become aware that our beliefs are a product of our desires and conceits and conditioning. (Some may well be "correct", yet as the old Chinese adage goes, "when wrong person uses right means, right means work in wrong way", and if we have not truly made our "beliefs" our "own" then they may well "work in the wrong way")

Beliefs seem the product of a "self" that sees itself as on a path, a self that seeks to be the recipient of experience, of "progress"...........even reward! The self as ego that seeks only to expand its own domain, to become "spiritual" or whatever. "Grace" opens fresh horizons! To seek instead to realise that which is already given rather than to bring into being that which is not. In such a context, "faith is the death of understanding", not the affirmation of a collection of "beliefs".

And can we even "seek" to realise this?

"Faith does not arise
Within oneself.
The Entrusting Heart is itself
Given by the Other Power" (Rennyo)

[chakraman]

wise words tarika, some may see them as a little raw but truth as opposed to faith has no time for dependance or sentimentalism and does not offer comfort but understanding which could at first make things worse.....

[cymbalblade]

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

To clarify, I have no trouble believing in God, or at least a higher power. To me, the spectacular world around me, my own mind, and my feelings are enough to believe in this. So, the little things in life are great. Some things that happen may or may not be miracles. I'm not too worried about that.

The problem is the more specific things, the places where the different faiths oppose each other. Was it true, what Jesus said, or what Muhammed said, or what Siddhartha Gautama said? Or somebody else?

Now, I appreciate the view that I may need blind faith until the next life, and that things will work out as long as I am loving, graceful, giving, etc. But, the problem is that a number of religions say that if you don't follow them (and instead follow one of the others) that you will doom yourself. For some religions, that doom is forever, for others it's just temporary.

But either way, this has me worried. I have a very strong desire to get things right. Maybe things will work out no matter what, but if I don't know what's true, I don't know. And I don't want to be wrong on this. Sure, plenty of you don't think that anything bad will happen. But some people out there do, and I'm scared that they might be right.

To make things worse, there are other things in life that directly challenge my belief that Christianity is the one true faith. People in my church were asking me to go on a missions trip with them to Nicaragua. I said I didn’t want to, and they keep asking me why. Honestly, I don’t think I should try to spread a religion that I don’t know is true. But I won’t say that to them. I have to keep sidestepping their questions.

Another issue is that they want me to only go out with Christian girls. If Christianity is right, it seems like this is the only wise thing for me to do. If not, then it’s probably the wrong thing for me to do. From what I understand, if you were to get married to someone of a different faith, you are likely to have kids that believe in nothing. That’s scary. I want my loved ones to find what I’m trying to find. This is a big decision to make when you’re developing an interest in a girl outside of your faith. And I’ll tell you, I’m going through that right now.

I feel like seeking the truth in Christianity has not worked for me. I feel that I honestly sought God and submitted myself to Him. This past October and November, I participated in a sort-of 40 day fast with my church, where I fasted one meal (out of my usual three) every day, two meals a few of the days, tv, movies, secular music, and using the internet for entertainment. In place of the fasted meals, I read the Bible and prayed a half hour each day. I prayed for understanding, stronger faith, to stay on the right path, to be closer to God, for His presence, and a lot of other things. I did this probably 38 out of the 40 days. I didn’t quite do as much as the Pastor wanted (entirely fast each Thursday), and I had some shortcomings (watching tv with my Dad), but other than that I did pretty well.

The Pastor said that this would have tremendous impacts in our lives, especially if we had been struggling with our faith. It was a hard step for me, because I had never submitted that fully before. But I wanted so badly to find God, that I submitted. I heard all the other people in my church talk about what great changes they were having and how much closer to God they were becoming. But after it was over, I still felt the same as I did before I started, except maybe more dissatisfied.

I didn’t get much out of it spiritually. But I have to admit, life has been better since that time. Things have just been going better than the past year. But I don’t know what that means. I still wonder if maybe I’ve been doing something wrong. Maybe I just haven’t learned to listen to God, or to fully let go of something God wants me to get rid of.

So, I continue to seek the truth. I guess right now I’m looking for new things to try that may show me the truth, or at least give me a bit of a feeling of what is right. Maybe reading the Quran, maybe Buddhist meditation, maybe reading the rest of the Bible, I don’t know. If anyone has any advice, please let me know.

Thank you all.

Tim

[InLove]

Hi cymbalblade!

I have a feeling that my advice is going to sound rather simplistic. However, it works for me, and so this is really all I can offer in truth.

Relax. Offer up your prayers as best you know how. Trust that God is listening. Then go ahead and read what your eyes and hands find to read. But follow your own heart, and don't worry so much about trying to achieve what authority figures in your life think is right for you. Quietly find the path that is there for you.

I know it sounds like an uneducated answer. But I assure you it is not.

Lifting you up to the heart of Love.

InPeace,
InLove

P.S. Oh, and I know several interfaith couples with children, and believe me, their kids are bright and beautiful and happy! Don't know that it works that way for everyone, but I have certainly witnessed it.

[path_of_one]

In Love, I couldn't have said it any better. That is precisely what I was going to say- relax a bit.

Don't worry if you don't experience what others do, or if your Pastor says something will happen and it doesn't for you. Everyone is different, and things like fasting affect everyone differently. In terms of experiencing God and Christ, for some this comes through a hike in the woods, for some it comes through singing at church, for some through fasting, for some through service...

As a Christian who has gone to services and read the scriptures of many different faiths, I do not think it is problematic to do so, as long as you're not trying to escape Christ. If you're open to Christ, you'll find Him as a Christian whether you read other scriptures and such or not, in my experience. And it is following Jesus Christ's teachings, and loving others and God, and serving others as the feet and hands of Jesus that is really important. Doctrine can be helpful to people, but I don't think it's a salvation issue, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. I trust that God is merciful and just, and knows that I am seeking after Him, and will therefore have mercy on my mistakes since I am sincere in my journey.

As for interfaith relationships, I think the reason many Christians discourage them is because a lot of couples have a very hard time being peaceful about it. Many couples try to change each other and end up fighting about what the kids should be, rather than really respecting each other's faith. That sets up additional tension and hardship in a marriage, on top of the prime reasons that already lead to divorce (disagreement about money issues is the biggest culprit). I think interfaith relationships can work, but it relies on both people being respectful of the other's faith, not feeling the other is doomed to hell (or you'll spend lots of time worried), and a solid understanding before getting married of how to handle kids, holidays, and so forth. Additionally, it can be a really wonderful and deeply spiritual thing to be in a marriage with someone that is looking in the same direction as you are spiritually. My husband and I's mutual Christian faith is what saved our marriage when everything else fell apart. Christ brought us the humility, forgiveness, and healing we needed when our human selves were exhausted.

Ultimately, I think interfaith marriages can work, but it depends on the people involved. Some Christians would spend too much time worrying the other person is not saved. Some people would eventually resent that their spouse refuses to take part in regular services, if this is a big part of their lives. But some people would be fine with it all. I think it's best to take an honest look at yourself and what you would want out of a relationship. If part of that is to go to church together, to study the Bible together, to pray together, etc. then it may be best to search for a Christian girl. If you're content to do all that alone, and don't mind raising children in two faiths, it may not really matter.