My submission for Conscientious Objector discharge from the U.S. Army

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Wow I've heard some brainwashing claptrap in my time but this thread takes the biscuit.



So it reached the mark it was intended for!!



So what? Some people are artistic, some are mathmatical, some are herioc and some are not cut out to be John Wayne. The world is made up of a miriad of people, all different and all valuable, even those you call cowards and if their place is not in the military then so what!!!

For all of you that have served in the military I am really shocked at you. During every intake of new recruits there are some who will feel afraid or lost and can be encouraged/bullied through until they are back on board ... every now and again you come across a recruit who just isn't going to be a soldier, no matter what you do and they should be allowed to leave without stigma.

If it wasn't for the "cowards" the miltary would grind to a halt tomorrow, because they are the ones in factories making bullets and tanks or staying back home making food for your families or supply electricity to their homes.



I feel sure all the dead civilians in Iraq will be dancing in their graves with joy to hear that Juantoo. Of course the fact remains that he is in training NOW, so the chances of him going to an aggresive war are around 100%.



that's just mean Grey and I have never seen you be mean before ... and I'm sorry I've witnessed it. Seems America is rubbing off on you.



Thank you for this SGTNOCS. I am a military veteran of the British army but have no problem if someone decides they made a mistake in joining, either through a change in beliefs or simply because they are afraid.

All this gung ho you took a vow BS is quite fascinating though, as you rightly point out it appears to be coming from military/ex military people on this thread ... I for one would rather go to war with people I know will fight beside me than with people who will go into shock or run the moment the first bullet rips past their head.

I really hope you can help him if he is genuine about his desire to extracate himself from the military.



No he won't but at least if he goes ahead with this he also won't spend the rest of his life seeing the people he killed in his dreams. Better to be a little poorer and sleep well in my opinion.

Please, before you jump to assumptions about people, read what the originator has stated. Read all of his responses, and thoughts. You might find that he is playing a "fiddle" and we are the strings...

v/r

Q

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Wow I've heard some brainwashing claptrap in my time but this thread takes the biscuit.

If only...

If only all the people I have had to explain myself to over and over and over again approached me with the same frame of mind. NO ONE in civilian life *ever* did. So I stayed silent, and quietly bore my shame.

And then one day my degrading body got to a point I had no choice but to request Government assistance, and all that old sh*t came right back to haunt me. I had to jump through hoops to get Social Security disability...then more hoops to go back to school and get a degree...and more hoops to become a Government employee. The latest...being turned down for a census position because of my past, and I didn't feel like going through all of the sh*t again.

How many people do you know personally that require the assistance of their government official just to get into school??? I missed two semesters waiting for my Representative to intervene, and even after that the paperwork was conveniently misplaced. If it wasn't for the fact I impressed the college president personally I may not have ever had the privilege of getting a shot at a degree!

It is one thing to preach an idealistic ideology, it is quite another practical and pragmatic reality that comes from breaking a contract of employment, *especially* government employment.

Bringing all of the political stuff into it is irrelevent. I'm sorry for people that are hurt, but you will not get me to break my vow trying to coerce me into commenting on the current military situation.

What I offered was practical advice based entirely on my personal experience. If that is unsuitable, well then I guess I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't, so what the hell...

[greymare]

MW, being in the US has NOTHING to do with my opinion. I DO have a mind of my own. Rabbit said he wanted thoughts opinions and was prepared for the "persecution", so I gave him that.
Like i previously posted, being a pacifist is the opposite of being a coward. It takes a truly brave person to be a pacifist.
But I will not dance around a subject, that is soooooooo important, just incase I might hurt someones feelings. There are plenty of others to do that.
When people ask for advice or comments, I will give it, IF i have an opinion, whether they take it or not is up to them. But i refuse to join the wahhhhhhhhhambulance brigage.


As for the Iraqi civilian victims, it is terrible, I agree. However, according to you (?) the blame falls on the allied forces........ So, does this mean that the Middle East has only been in crisis since 9/11?

[wil]

This thread defines something very clearly. That no one. NO ONE can tell ANY ONE what to do if they were in their shoes, as they simply can't be in their shoes.

That each and every one of us is a culmination of our particular experience, our particular thoughts and our particular actions.

That each and every one of us despite how much we try have ingrained personal and institutional biases that flavor our decisions and our words.

It is an absolutely incredible thread for that reason, and has educated me greatly in that regard. Also it has opened up my eyes with some great discussion contemplations.

And where I've grown by listening and reading is that each and every person does have a valid opinion, based on their perception of their experiences. But that does NOT apply to all people or all situations, it only applies to them. But beyond that, that I don't want anyone on my team, on my side, that doesn't want to be there, as they will inherently become a hinderance and not a help in the situation.

Now this is based on my bias, my perception of my experiences and understandings and therefor may only apply to me and my opinion....but to extrapolate that...

I don't want Rabbit fighting our wars.....as it is my opinion that without being ready, WILLING and able, he would be a detriment to the soldiers next to him.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by wil

This thread defines something very clearly. That no one. NO ONE can tell ANY ONE what to do if they were in their shoes, as they simply can't be in their shoes.

That each and every one of us is a culmination of our particular experience, our particular thoughts and our particular actions.

That each and every one of us despite how much we try have ingrained personal and institutional biases that flavor our decisions and our words.

And where I've grown by listening and reading is that each and every person does have a valid opinion, based on their perception of their experiences. But that does NOT apply to all people or all situations, it only applies to them. But beyond that, that I don't want anyone on my team, on my side, that doesn't want to be there, as they will inherently become a hinderance and not a help in the situation.

Affirmative! That is my philosophy too on these forums. Never push or force onto another person what you don't want forced on yourself.

Originally Posted by wil

I don't want Rabbit fighting our wars.....as it is my opinion that without being ready, WILLING and able, he would be a detriment to the soldiers next to him.

Never ask someone to do something they don't want to do. This is why so many marriages break down. It's either because people are not getting the appreciation they want or are doing what they don't want to do and feeling "trapped." When people feel "trapped" or "enslaved" they often feel violated and abused. Mr. Rabbit here is the victim and the USA is the abuser. The USA should let Mr. Rabbit go.

It's like somewhere in the Tanakh/OT it says that if a soldier has personal issues, they should stay at home and not fight for Israel. What about the story in the NT about the Prodigal Son where the father lets the son go? Mr. Rabbit no longer believes in "the way of the American soldier." There is no point trying to convince him he's a "coward" or "idiot" for not continuing along that path. He has become disillusioned with the idea.

wil, excellent post!

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

this thread defines something very clearly. That no one. No one can tell any one what to do if they were in their shoes, as they simply can't be in their shoes.

That each and every one of us is a culmination of our particular experience, our particular thoughts and our particular actions.

That each and every one of us despite how much we try have ingrained personal and institutional biases that flavor our decisions and our words.

It is an absolutely incredible thread for that reason, and has educated me greatly in that regard. Also it has opened up my eyes with some great discussion contemplations.

And where i've grown by listening and reading is that each and every person does have a valid opinion, based on their perception of their experiences. But that does not apply to all people or all situations, it only applies to them. But beyond that, that i don't want anyone on my team, on my side, that doesn't want to be there, as they will inherently become a hinderance and not a help in the situation.

Now this is based on my bias, my perception of my experiences and understandings and therefor may only apply to me and my opinion....but to extrapolate that...

I don't want rabbit fighting our wars.....as it is my opinion that without being ready, willing and able, he would be a detriment to the soldiers next to him.

.....amen!!!

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Please, before you jump to assumptions about people, read what the originator has stated. Read all of his responses, and thoughts. You might find that he is playing a "fiddle" and we are the strings...

Ah so you immediately jumped to the assumption that I had not read the OP or the whole thread ... and yet I read it very carefully.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

If only all the people I have had to explain myself to over and over and over again approached me with the same frame of mind. NO ONE in civilian life *ever* did. So I stayed silent, and quietly bore my shame.

Shame comes from within Juantoo, so if you later felt it was a mistake then I am sorry for you and I am also sorry that your country would treat people in this way .. particularly after the way it treated the Vietnam vets, it seems the US is a rather slow learner.

However, you also said "So from my POV, pacifism is a cop out, it is cowardice...nothing more." .. which is a far cry from saying don't do it or the country will treat you badly .. don't you think?

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Bringing all of the political stuff into it is irrelevent. I'm sorry for people that are hurt, but you will not get me to break my vow trying to coerce me into commenting on the current military situation.

and yet that is the current military situation you are telling someone they should live with now and are a coward if they do not ... so how can it not be talked about?

Originally Posted by greymare

Rabbit said he wanted thoughts opinions and was prepared for the "persecution", so I gave him that.

Indeed you did.

Originally Posted by greymare

As for the Iraqi civilian victims, it is terrible, I agree. However, according to you (?) the blame falls on the allied forces........

Sorry run that one by me again ... you agree that it is terrible that Iraqi civilians have been killed, raped and tortured by Allied troops and you are questioning whether the blame lies with those troops?

Juantoo's argument was "The army and all of the military with the possible exception of the Coast Guard spend far more time at peace on average than they do at war." ... I was simply pointing out that peacetime is NOT the current state of world affairs.

Originally Posted by greymare

So, does this mean that the Middle East has only been in crisis since 9/11?

We have plenty of threads to discuss ME politics on but this one is about a man who doesn't want to be a soldier anymore and at this very moment in human history if he remains in the army he is virtually guaranteed to be sent to either Iraq or Afghanistan to kill people. Whether he doesn't wish to do so for religious reasons or if that is just BS because he is scared is immaterial .. the point is that is his immediate future in the US military.

Originally Posted by wil

I don't want Rabbit fighting our wars.....as it is my opinion that without being ready, WILLING and able, he would be a detriment to the soldiers next to him.

Exactly and no amount of calling someone "soldier" as Q has done or abusing them as others have done is going to make him an asset to a military unit, be that in peace or war time. Let him leave and without stigma, is my opinion.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

.....amen!!!

and yet you are the one calling for him to stick to his vow ... so you don't care if he is a detriment to your own troops??!!

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Shame comes from within Juantoo, so if you later felt it was a mistake then I am sorry for you and I am also sorry that your country would treat people in this way .. particularly after the way it treated the Vietnam vets, it seems the US is a rather slow learner.

However, you also said "So from my POV, pacifism is a cop out, it is cowardice...nothing more." .. which is a far cry from saying don't do it or the country will treat you badly .. don't you think?



and yet that is the current military situation you are telling someone they should live with now and are a coward if they do not ... so how can it not be talked about?

Juantoo's argument was "The army and all of the military with the possible exception of the Coast Guard spend far more time at peace on average than they do at war." ... I was simply pointing out that peacetime is NOT the current state of world affairs.

You are ex-military, yes?

Did you get out by Conscientious Objection? Have you had to deal with the aftermath and repercussions of such a decision? Have you had 25 years plus dealing with the repercussions of such a decision?

According to Wil, no one here has walked in Rabbit's shoes...but of everyone here my path *is* the closest...I *can* offer advice based on experience. Can you?

and yet you are the one calling for him to stick to his vow ... so you don't care if he is a detriment to your own troops??!!

And you would have me break my vow by your verbal coersion? Clearly a vow means little...

Further, it seems to me...as it will to the Psych evaluator...that Rabbit's CO is selective, and selective CO *is* cowardice. That is not noble pacifism...as Rabbit and SGTNOCS both noted, CO and pacifism are not the same.

I also noticed you conveniently overlooked my advice to serve in a non-combatant position... a person can still honorably serve their country and their culture *in the military* without ever firing a single shot. Even in wartime. At least they can in this country, I can't say about anywhere else.

[greymare]

Sorry MW, let me clarify.............. any of those horrible (sorry cant think of other word, but I know there are plenty)......actions commited by any troops upon civilians is reprehensible.......... do we agree? but the point i was trying to make was that the Middle East has been at war(continuously) with itself and others for aeons, are we (the west) to blame for that too?

[Janz]

greymare: There is enough blame to go around for the current and past wars in the Middle East..of course, that depends on your historical perspective and your willingness to admit that Western Colonialism was a huge factor in carving up the Middle East and placing arbitrary boundary lines for countries that never existed before WWI. The bottom link is a layperson's thoughts regarding this issue and the conclusion that the British and the French are to blame for the conditions that exist in the Middle East.

Blame the British and French for Today's Mayhem in the Middle East

This is an article in Newsweek that claims that Great Britain Wrecked the World.
Did Britain Wreck the World? - Newsweek

Not that America is blameless, we aren't. We are now the dominant superpower and because we are descended from the European Colonial mindset, we are continuing this foolishness. For some reason, we now like to meddle in the affairs of oil rich countries. I wish that we would stop policing the world and use all that $$ that goes toward the military to do that to take care of our many problems.

For instance, I fully support cutting our military budget (and my hubby does work for a defense contractor on weather and space weather code for satellites; not weapons of mass destruction..remember he is a pacifist* who received an honorable CO discharge from the Navy in 1976).

One of my reasons is that—with $549 billion requested for basic military expenditures and another $159 billion requested for U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan—the record $708 billion military spending called for by the Obama administration for fiscal 2011 will be nearly equivalent to the military spending of all other nations in the world combined. When it comes to military appropriations, the U.S. government already spends about seven times as much as China, thirteen times as much as Russia, and seventy-three times as much as Iran.

Where does this vast outlay of U.S. tax dollars—the greatest military appropriations in U.S. history—go? One place is to overseas U.S. military bases. According to Chalmers Johnson, a political scientist and former CIA consultant, as much as $250 billion per year is used to maintain some 865 U.S. military facilities in more than forty countries and overseas U.S. territories.
The money also goes to fund vast legions of private military contractors. A recent Pentagon report estimated that the Defense Department relies on 766,000 contractors at an annual cost of about $155 billion, and this figure does not include private intelligence organizations. A Washington Post study, which included all categories, estimated that the Defense Department employs 1.2 million private contractors.

When calculating the benefits and losses of these kinds of expenditures, we should also include the opportunities forgone through military spending. How many times have government officials told us that there is not enough money available for health care, for schools, for parks, for the arts, for public broadcasting, for unemployment insurance, for law enforcement, and for maintenance of America's highway, bridge, and rail infrastructure?

It is a very sad situation. I firmly believe in a strong defense but all this money thrown at the military is insane. President Dwight D. Eisenhower (one of my favorite Republican Presidents ) warned our country about the Military Industrial Complex in a 1961 speech.

Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

Martin Luther King, Jr., a true pacifist who practiced nonviolent resistance said: "A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death."

I am not anti-military in any respect..I do appreciate those men and women who are called to serve our country to the best of their abilities. I, however, have no use for war hawk politicians who are so anxious to throw away the lives of these women and men for short term profit. It was diplomacy that brought about the fall of communism..how many people died in the Vietnam conflict? Just recently I bought an article of clothing that said "Made in Vietnam."
Oh the irony: 50 years later, Vietnam has entered the world of capitalism.


*Definition of a pacifist: they would rather surrender their own life than kill another human being or animal for that matter. Some pacifist go as far as never eating meat.

I am not a pacifist but I respect those people who are.

[luecy7]

uRabbit: "Servant only to God"... this reveals a bigger problem to me than the dilemma you find yourself in. I think your dilemma is associated with this. Are you a soldier of God, then? Have you no other relationships than the one with God? Do you like it when others serve you?

I find the agreement for military service is founded on a serious lie, so I think you can rightfully break the agreement. However, I don't think you have to. You could do good for the individuals you work with in the military even as you oppose the military itself. The serious lie: Lets face it, if government and the military were a servant of the people ("We the people"), then it would be taking orders from the people. It doesn't, does it. Still, you can order anyone outside of your chain of command. My orders are: Don't pretend to be serving and killing in my name. Will anyone listen? Here is another order: Don't spend the lives of the people who don't even have a vote. Will the government listen and stop spending the children's children's money, enslaving them to the rich and the foreign countries? I would advise defying the chain-of-command by pulling rank on the superiors by asking God for help and advice, which it seems you have.

I suggest that outside of the military you will find the same dilemma. Every company or person you go to work for may likewise be doing evil for one reason or another, so you get involved and then you come up with the same problem. You can join a chain-of-command enterprise somewhere and you will invariably find intolerable people, intolerable orders, and company evil. Some good deeds, but fair amounts of evil everywhere. So what do you do... just keep quiting? Self employed, you still take orders from the public, some who do good, and some who do evil.

If you were to stay in the military though, and see the military as your enemy, the individuals that you meet there are still your potential friends. Jesus came to dine with sinners and tax collectors, right? If and when that order comes that is without question just morally wrong though, you end up with the green pickle. If you are following Jesus though, persecution is to be expected, right? Joining the military, you didn't expect to be delivering flowers, did you? I know that the perspective changes, but it changes in part by the good and evil that we come across.

In my opinion anyone who obtains a conscientious objector discharge is more honorable than the people who serve to kill and claim that it was done for the citizens in the name of the people. Nobody hates war as much as a soldier who has experienced it, so by that account a conscientious objector is a soldier already.

[greymare]

ok ok............ its our fault! No, hang on a minute, Its MY fault. Is that better? Blame me for the war in the middle east, global warming, rise in taxes and everything else, why the f-ck not,!! Ive got broad shoulders.!!!!!!!

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

You are ex-military, yes?

Did you get out by Conscientious Objection? Have you had to deal with the aftermath and repercussions of such a decision? Have you had 25 years plus dealing with the repercussions of such a decision?

Yes I served in the military and no I didn't leave due to CO.

As Wil has said, we all see life from our own experiences. I served in the military police and part of that job was to arrest soldiers who had gone AWOL. They did so for many different reasons. So I have spoken at great length to soldiers who wish to leave the army for various reasons, including CO.

With those life experiences my view stands ... many can be turned around and returned to duty but some cannot and should not be stigmatised for their decision to leave.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

And you would have me break my vow by your verbal coersion? Clearly a vow means little...

At what point would you break a vow? What would have to happen in your mind to make you cross that line? Or are you suggesting, as it seems, that nothing should make you break your vow.

Every British soldier signs the official secrets act and takes an vow to protect Queen and country.

So why do you think this senior British Officer felt the need to cross that line?

British Army officer arrested over military secrets leak - Telegraph

What do you think he witnessed to make him break his vow? Is he simply a coward in your eyes or did his brain simply get to a point where he said enough this is morally wrong?

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I also noticed you conveniently overlooked my advice to serve in a non-combatant position... a person can still honorably serve their country and their culture *in the military* without ever firing a single shot. Even in wartime. At least they can in this country, I can't say about anywhere else.

I didn't overlook it I simply didn't comment on it. If someone wants out that badly then let them out .. full stop ... they should not have to wear a uniform in any capacity

Originally Posted by greymare

Sorry MW, let me clarify.............. any of those horrible (sorry cant think of other word, but I know there are plenty)......actions commited by any troops upon civilians is reprehensible.......... do we agree?

Yes we agree.

Originally Posted by greymare

but the point i was trying to make was that the Middle East has been at war(continuously) with itself and others for aeons, are we (the west) to blame for that too?

Janz has given an excellent answer however I would ask if you are suggesting that because Arabs have been killing Arabs for eons that it doesn't count if we go there and kill them, hence no reason for Rabbit to feel squeemish about it or refuse to do it?

[luecy7]

Originally Posted by wil

This thread defines something very clearly. That no one. NO ONE can tell ANY ONE what to do if they were in their shoes, as they simply can't be in their shoes.

That each and every one of us is a culmination of our particular experience, our particular thoughts and our particular actions.

I am sorry, but I must disagree with your religion again. You state it in a way that is against the very words that you speak. It sounds like you associate responsibility with communication, or communication with punishment. Everyone can tell anyone what to do if they were in their shoes. That is how people joined the military in the first place. Some recruiter, media, or family member was sitting there telling the kids what an honorable and rewarded person they could be if they would join the military. Likewise, people who have been in the military certainly can tell the kid whether or not it is a good idea to seek a conscientious out. (I have been there, and I knew some fine people who obtained the conscientious out). Sure, on both sides people might result to insults like 'idiot, fool', or 'patriot, hero' to sway the person. The media has been full of those, and yes that is disgusting, because the members of the media have not been in a war.

Maybe I am wrong, but maybe you are saying that 'NO ONE can FORCE anyone to make a decision of what to do, given that they are NOT in their shoes'? Sadly, that is what the military does. It forces. So do those people who will enforce legal action over breaking an agreement to fight.

Since we were talking about marriage, lets talk about a vow. It is one thing for two people who face an unknown to vow to live as one together for the good of each other, facing the unknowns together. The vow is symmetric, and it is for the good of each other. Additionally, any two people who are going to exchange or work together will have at least one non-symmetric agreement. You clean the car, and I'll wash the dog... agreed? If the oath for a military were anywhere comparable to a marriage, then it would be like a man promising to provide sperm at least 1 weekend a month, or the female to give birth to 6 kids. The non-symmetric agreement is quite easily a criminal act itself with the potential for manipulation, dishonesty, witholding information, greed, subversion, you name it. While it might be deemed disloyal and unfaithful to break the agreement, it was not a symmetric vow to begin with. From a third party perspective it can easily be a criminal agreement and wrong for anyone to carry it out. People can honestly enter into an agreement with good intentions for a set of reasons, and after they have gained further information they discover that the agreement was criminal or made them the victim or the perpetrator of a criminal act.

Who does God find responsible for a killing? Is it the shooter, the person who wrote the orders for the shooter, the recruiter, the media, or the people who claim to benefit and pay taxes for them to shoot and kill?

[wil]

What I said is, and of course it is my opinion. That no one can tell anyone else what they would do if they were in their shoes, eg recomend the best option for them. As we would do what they would do if we were in their shoes. If we had their experiences and knowledge we would do things differently than if we had our experience and knowledge.

Of course folks can coerce, cajole and convince someone to do something they don't wish to do, that happens all the time, and is the reason salesman make the big bucks.