Natural Justice: Does it exist? - Page 3

Sacredstar · 12-21-2004, 12:28 AM

Dear Lunamoth

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I think this is where End Times prophecy stems from. Once God shows His face in a way that can't be denied, it's all over.

Why do you think its all over? Why is it not a new beginning?

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

lunamoth · 12-21-2004, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sacredstar

Dear Lunamoth

Why do you think its all over? Why is it not a new beginning?

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

Yes I think it will also be a beginning, but not of something we can imagine now.

I, Brian · 12-21-2004, 11:04 PM

The point about "justice" being nothing more equivalent than "retribution" is definitely an interesting one to raise - but is no one going to argue for some system of "reward & punishment" on the earthly scale, even if such a system is not necessarily answerable to human culture-specific morality?

Is not Karma ultimately a form of "natural justice" in that action has consequence?

Blue · 12-22-2004, 11:15 AM

With due respect to SS and LM, I do not really understand all this stuff about 'end of times'. Sorry to be not up to par on this one! lol

Does this refer to the physical end of our perceiveable Universe?
If so,I will not be likely to be around to appreciate it.
Does it refer to the death of our bodies?
I see no evidence that persuades me of a 'life' beyond death.
Does it refer to something 'Biblical' in 'Revelations' terms? (An apocalyse?).
Well... if one wishes to wax poetical...! lol

Re: retribution, Brian, I find it very difficult to conceive of any spiritual retribution...that doesn't have its origins in human beings' actions/behaviours.
Apply the term to a vengeful 'God' and we are in debateable territory for sure!
Apply the term to reaping as we sow... sort of Karma like, and we have to consider that some reap what they don't expect...(Fact!) because of infestation, mutations, lack of water and light, on the crop to be harvested.

A confused 'Blue'....

Blue · 12-22-2004, 11:22 AM

Sorry... to make things clear, I do not feel, or think, that there is 'natural' justice.

'Justice' is just a human concept. (... which may, or may not, be projected upon a 'God' or Gods and Goddesses, again by human beings?)

Good and bad things 'happen'... why claim 'chance' has an intelligence behind it... it doesn't seem to achieve anything in conceptual terms beyond being a vague and rather poetic/mystical notion?

Sacredstar · 12-22-2004, 11:32 AM

Dear Blue

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue

With due respect to SS and LM, I do not really understand all this stuff about 'end of times'. Sorry to be not up to par on this one! lol

1. Does this refer to the physical end of our perceiveable Universe

2. Does it refer to the death of our bodies?

3. I see no evidence that persuades me of a 'life' beyond death.

4. Does it refer to something 'Biblical' in 'Revelations' terms? (An apocalyse?).

5. retribution, Brian, I find it very difficult to conceive of any spiritual retribution...that doesn't have its origins in human beings' actions/behaviours. Apply the term to reaping as we sow... sort of Karma like, and we have to consider that some reap what they don't expect...(Fact!) because of infestation, mutations, lack of water and light, on the crop to be harvested.

1. It is not the end of the universe, as I understand it, it is the end of the world as we have known it e.g. our perceptin of it. It is a totally new reality of the golden age. A new heaven and earth becoming one.

2. No, the death of old ideas, concepts, perceptions and belief systems. e.g. the world is not flat.

3. This is another thread perhaps you would like to start it.

4. Yes the Brides of Christ are being called. The Lover and the Beloved.

5. Reaping what we sow, it is clear that we are reaping what we sow on this planet right now, we are destroying the lifeforce, nature, animals and ourselves and there does not appear to be an end to selfishness at the moment. It is rotting the roots of the tree of life.

But yet I have faith and hope that GODs flock will rise and say enough it enough.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

Sacredstar · 12-22-2004, 11:35 AM

Dear Brian

Quote:

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Is not Karma ultimately a form of "natural justice" in that action has consequence?

I say yes it is, cause and effect.

Sacredstar

mirrorinthefog · 12-22-2004, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue

Sorry... to make things clear, I do not feel, or think, that there is 'natural' justice.

'Justice' is just a human concept. (... which may, or may not, be projected upon a 'God' or Gods and Goddesses, again by human beings?)

Good and bad things 'happen'... why claim 'chance' has an intelligence behind it... it doesn't seem to achieve anything in conceptual terms beyond being a vague and rather poetic/mystical notion?

Just to be the devil's advocate, for the sake of arguement

If there is no natural justice, then our deeds have no bearing on our overall well being, no matter how moral or immoral, and everything is left to chance. Why bother with artificial concepts of morality, since they seem to obscure our true nature?

It seems like we would be resisting what should naturally prevail. Ideals and morals simply prevent us from understanding our own inherit needs, regarless of how it impacts others around us. It would certianly save a lot of time and energy not to fight for something that obviously is pointless, since good or bad means nothing in the real world.

Wouldn't it be easier to revert to a "survival of the fittest" strategy and weed out those less fortunate then ourselves, since they're obviously of no use to the rest of the practical, logic-based world, with whom power and fortune should lie? Why contribute to the population problem? There would be no need to hide behind the mask of "good" and "bad" deeds, no threats of punishment from some high and mighty source, no need for maintaining harmony except to maintain one's interests. Since chance will favor those who are stronger and more able to cope with life, those who have no strength would be considered excess and either exploited for what they're worth or cast aside.

What's the point of morality if they are man-made concepts with no bearing on the natural scheme of things:? The world, nature, the universe, etc. is unthinking and logical, doesn't stop to consider the unfortunate, has no human sentiments such as "justice" or "mercy" or "evil" and doesn't romanticize about the significance of human life. Why should we?

Just a thought...

Vajradhara · 12-22-2004, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I, Brian

The point about "justice" being nothing more equivalent than "retribution" is definitely an interesting one to raise - but is no one going to argue for some system of "reward & punishment" on the earthly scale, even if such a system is not necessarily answerable to human culture-specific morality?

Is not Karma ultimately a form of "natural justice" in that action has consequence?

Namaste Brian,

it depends on whos' teaching of Karma that you follow, Sanatan Dharma or Buddha Dharma, as they are a bit different from each other.

from the Buddhist view, if, in fact, all actions produced karmic consequence that couldn't be mitigated, there would be no chance for liberation. that is not the Buddhist view.

generally speaking, most beings will reap the full consequence of their actions since they are not engaging in any actions to directly counter act said consequences. from our point of view, if a being decides to start practicing the teachings, they will get to a point where they can mitigate the reaping of their karmic energy.

further, the fruit of Karma can be of either postive, negative or neutral characteristics... and these things are based on a whole host of physchological factors which is well beyond the scope of this conversation.

my point, essentially, is that most beings aren't really seeking justice, they are seeking retribution.

which, to my way of thinking, is markedly different.

green lantern · 12-23-2004, 03:34 AM

Natural or Divine Justice does exist because I choose to believe. All things will be tried, and judicial decision will be passed in the end...even if it will be in the Celestial Kingdom. My proof is only opinion like others, but I guess we will find out during our transition.

Sacredstar · 12-23-2004, 12:50 PM

and what we believe creates our reality

being love

Sacredstar

Blue · 12-23-2004, 01:07 PM

MintF,
You say:

What's the point of morality if they are man-made concepts with no bearing on the natural scheme of things:?

Only you can answer that according to the dictates of your reasoning and rationality. As Einstein said there is a need for a morality and ethical system based in rationality, rather than the religious, and that should extend to our system of education.
=============
Green Lantern,
You say:

"Natural or Divine Justice does exist because I choose to believe. All things will be tried, and judicial decision will be passed in the end...even if it will be in the Celestial Kingdom. My proof is only opinion like others, but I guess we will find out during our transition."

And I am pleased to see you emphasise this is a subjective and personal affective view. That's fine.

You spoil it at the end though, because you make a guess at something as if it is likely to be actually universally true: "I guess we will find out during our transition."

How on earth do you know,my friend, that there is a 'transition'.
Yes... you can guess what you may or may not find out, but what is this 'transition'?

Have you some good, logical and objective evidence for claiming our death is a transition rather than just an end... a cessation? I have never seen or heard of any?

Sacredstar · 12-23-2004, 01:35 PM

Dear Blue

Check out Michael Roll from Bristol, the scientific proof of survival after death. He says 'Here is an extraordinary paradox. Only those who can be relied upon to dismiss findings and conclusions of our pioneers of radio and television are allowed on radio and television. Our scientists who support the British pioneers of radio and television - Sir William Crookes, Sir Oliver Lodge and John Logie Baird - have been blocked from speaking about the scientific proof of survival after death until March 1998. We have had the experimental proof ever since Sir William Crookes published the results of his experiments in the leading scientific journal of his day - "The Quarterly Journal of Science in 1874. Charles Richet, the French Nobel Laureate for medical science, said about the experiments "There is ample proof that experimental materialisations should take definite rank as as scientific fact.

Scientific proof as been censored for years. Michael Roll as worked passionately over recent years for to get this rectified.

When Stephen Hawkings had an audience with the Pope, the Pope told him that he did not mind what he discovered, but he must stay away from Life After Death for that is his domain.

Onwards and upwards

Sacredstar

Sacredstar · 12-23-2004, 01:44 PM

Here are some links for michael role and his campaign for philosophical freedom.

www.cfpf.org.uk

The Campaign for Philosophical Freedom
Christian era. Michael Roll. Related material on this site: The Suppression
of Knowledge - A pamphlet by Michael Roll. "There is ...
www.cfpf.org.uk

The Campaign for Philosophical Freedom
In this 30 minute video Michael Roll presents what the people are not allowed access to in the Theocracy of Great Britain - a country where the Church and the ... http://www.cfpf.org.uk/recommended/v...cularcase.html

The Campaign for Philosophical Freedom
"A History of Christianity" - A Page-by-Page Criticism of Paul Johnson's Horror Story. by Michael Roll (1982, 50 pages). Paul Johnson's ...
www.cfpf.org.uk

The Campaign for Philosophical Freedom
The Scientific Proof of Survival After Death Belongs to Every Person on Earth
www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/scientists.html - 14k - 21 Dec 2004

being love

Sacredstar

Blue · 12-23-2004, 02:15 PM

Hi SacredStar,
I am familiar with the nonsense perpetrated by Michael Roll.

So are the many people he approaches with his irrationalism.

There just isn't any evidence so far.
Is that so hard to accept by the 'Michael Rolls' of this world?

Every approach to set up test situations has been not only refused but ridiculed by Michael Roll.

Is that the action of a reasonable and rational man?

When presented with evidence contrary to his views... all he has ever given is 'assertion' and personal 'affirmation'.

If he has real and repeatable scientific and objective evidence, let him present it. That's all his critics ask for. He has singularly failed to do this to date.

Beyond all that, I have no comment... though I have to admit to not having watched the video. What's in it?