Natural Justice: Does it exist?

[I, Brian]

Even as a child I had it in mind that people who do "bad" things "suffer" more for it - that some form of "natural" or "divine" justice just seemed to make sense.

Nowadays, being more materially fixated, it seems clear that those with material concerns will succeed on this material earth, even where issues of ethics and morality are clearly being ignored.

HOWEVER, at some point is material reward it's own punishment? And does is the wrongdoer really ever punished adequately in this lifetime?

Is there really such a thing as "Natural Justice" or "Divine Justice" on this earth? Or it is so sorely lacking that the concept of punishment and reward can only be invoked as an "after-life" process?

[Vajradhara]

Namaste brian,


do you mean retribution, instead of justice?

that often seems to be the underlying emotion that i see when people start talking about these things.

[ISFP]

hey Brian-

i do think that living a solely material existence can be a punishment in itself. if we don't work to cultivate relationships with others and work only for material self-gain, our lives will be only as meaningful as the clutter our money buys.

but this does not guarentee that those living money-driven, shallow lives will be punished by that shallowness. it does not guarentee that those who suffer in this life will cease to suffer before they die.

[Sacredstar]

All have a reason for being.

My mother used to say all people either suffer early in life or late in life but I disagree because it is only attachment that causes suffering.

Justice well there certainly does seem to be a lot of injustice in the world. Financial prosperity I understand is a learning process in itself, and what the soul chooses to do with the good fortune. Does the soul choose to share? This is the chosen test of a life of wealth.

Money makes the world go round and it is just another form of energy, it is what we do with that our energy that really counts.

I feel that natural justice does exist, but it does not always manifest the way that we think it will.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

[mirrorinthefog]

To me it's not a matter of punishment, as much as it is being mindful of one's actions, as it were. It's preventing someone from harming his environment and himself, and making him aware of the damage he is causing to his surroundings, and ultimately to himself.
I'd like to believe that what goes around comes around, and that material gain can be it's own punishment, depending on the intentions involved. Maybe, as we harm others, we harm ourselves by preventing ourselves being able to achieve balance and find peace. In my humble opinion, being stuck in that kind of vicious cycle is punishment.
But again, this is nothing but speculation. I might just be kidding myself so I don't feel bad about being kicked around, or watching other people get kicked around... I guess I'll find out if I'm wrong when it's all over with. hehehe.

[Blue]

Is there really such a thing as "Natural Justice" or "Divine Justice" on this earth?
============
Oh, Brian... NO!

Justice is a manmade concept. It's definition is variable...both metaphysically and in reality.
Briefly it is 'dispensed' as a result of laws built upon an ethical base in any particular culture/nation/or group.
That ethical base can be as variable as a Christian one, an Islamic one, or a reasoned and objective one created ostensibly through rationality...(as called for by Einstein,for one!).

There is simply no evidence for 'Nature' / 'Divine' purpose in terms of 'Justice',in my humble opinion.

One could of course argue, I think with some justification, that 'Nature' does seem to follow natural processes, as investigated through the biological sciences, but it is another thing to ascribe 'intelligence' to Nature, which is highly debateable and in fact unproven.

[Sacredstar]

Dear Blue

Originally Posted by Blue

Justice is a manmade concept.

Just sharing

After the Iraq war began Jesus and Mother Mary came to me and they said

'there is no justice while suffering remains"

So from the evidence of my own experience justice is not a manmade concept.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Blue,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Blue

Justice is a manmade concept. It's definition is variable...both metaphysically and in reality.

i agree with you... which is why i asked if it was retribution that Brian was asking about.

this feeling of retribution is exactly what i observe when i see, for instance, the mother of Lacy Peterson explaining how they are "satisfied" now that Scott is going to be killed. this isn't justice in any way, shape or form that i'm aware of. this is revenge... retribution.. hurting someone that has hurt you.

[Blue]

There is something in what you say, Vajradhara.
Retribution is also a purely human concept and response, even if, as we have all seen, it is tied to concepts of a vengeful God, or even one sending unbelievers and those of other faiths, or no particular faith, to a 'Hell'.

[Blue]

POST 7 SacredStar.

Many thanks for making the same point as myself, when you say:

"So from the evidence of my own experience justice is not a manmade concept. "

In declaring it of your heart, conviction and validation, I'm afraid you prove the point that a human being is making the statement. It is made by a human being, in all sincerity.
Believing something though does not validate it outside of yourself. It is your heart ( and soul?) that validates this and leads you to affirm it.

Only your dear self, SacredStar, can affirm that Jesus and Mother Mary came to you. No one can disprove that and it would be poor manners to even maintain that it wasn't true of yourself. That would be unnecessarily insulting and I would never do that.

The fact though remains that there is no evidence for the affirmation outside of, beyond, yourself in the material world. It is supremely your personal affective experience as a result of your affective nurture.

[Sacredstar]

Dear Blue

Of course and so it is with the bible and all other scripture.

But everyone and anyone can ask Jesus and Mary themselves and they too can receive confirmation, if they ask with a pure heart the truth will enter or be shown to them.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

[Blue]

if they ask with a pure heart the truth will enter or be shown to them.
================
Again, with respect, SacredStar, it is only an affective conception of yourself that there is first, purity of heart, and 'they' enter in, or a revelation is made.

As I say this is fine. No one can criticise or should try to gainsay, your honestly expressed views of your affective self and experience.

Statements of Faith, based in that Faith, bear no necessity of proof beyond yourself. They are inimitably yours and unique.
Faith by definition does not require proofs beyond the self, outside of the ego in the material and objective domain. If Faith had proofs beyond the self, there would be no necessity for the term 'Faith', we would be discussing an objective 'fact'.

[Sacredstar]

Dear Blue

It is not just my own experience it is millions of people's experiences. So with respect let us encourage and not discourage others from venturing forth with their own direct communion with GOD.

One does not need faith to speak to GOD and his/her messengers.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

[mirrorinthefog]

Originally Posted by Sacredstar

Dear Blue

It is not just my own experience it is millions of people's experiences. So with respect let us encourage and not discourage others from venturing forth with their own direct communion with GOD.

One does not need faith to speak to GOD and his/her messengers.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

Hi Sacredstar

I don't think Blue is trying to discourage anyone from communing with the Divine, as much as stating that the human experience is subjective. Of course anyone can contact God, but first they have to believe in God, so as to prepare themselves for the experience Otherwise they can translate the communion as anything from hallucination to fatigue to illusion and trickery. If you don't believe, you can't see. And if you do, the Divine is everywhere!

In the same way, arguably, everything is very much dependant on what we make of it. Reality itself is subjective. Our senses can be just as deceptive as our hearts and our minds. What we assert is real, or proven to be real, is only the reflection of human observation. We have nothing but ourselves against which we can compare life and existance. We believe we exist, and there is no earthly way of proving ourselves right or wrong. We simply have to take our own word for it. lol.

As Blue stated, I think we can observe some measure of 'balance' or at least logical order in the world around us, but whether or not the Divine plays a role in it, and if so, how much, and in what way (is there a concious purpose in natural law? is it simply our perception that makes it "law", and gives it direction?) is and always will be up to the individual to decide.

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Blue

There is something in what you say, Vajradhara.
Retribution is also a purely human concept and response, even if, as we have all seen, it is tied to concepts of a vengeful God, or even one sending unbelievers and those of other faiths, or no particular faith, to a 'Hell'.

oh, i quite agree.

i, personally, feel as if that conclusion is incontrovertible....however, that is just my view on the issue.