Need a context please

Muslimwoman · 05-25-2007, 06:03 AM

Hi All

I was searching for something in the Bible in BibleGateway.com and by accident came accross this verse - please can someone put it into context for me because I am sure I didn't learn this in sunday school:

Judges 19:22
While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him."

Thank you.
Salaam

pattimax · 05-25-2007, 02:41 PM

Thes men were not enjoying themselves playing hop-scotch and drinking lemonade, they were engaged in perverted debauchery. Further on in this context shows disgraceful compromise in the exagerated desire of the host to show hospitality to his male guest.

You know, depending only on Sunday school for knowledge of the Bible and Christian life in general can be rather naive. This is wonderful thing to question, it shines light. Thank you.

Prober · 05-25-2007, 04:26 PM

Seems to be similar to the story of Lot (Luz) and the angels.

The old man attempts to be a good host and when his guest is threatened by the evil men, he offers his own daughter to assuage their "appetites", but the men didn't want the virgin, they wanted the concubine (a "harlot").

They abuse her until morning and she dies on the doorstep of the old man's house. Her husband gets so torqued that he cuts up her body into twelve pieces and sends a piece to each tribe saying "look how the people of Benjamin treat strangers" (my words).

The story has flavors of being a lesson of being kind to strangers and also possibly a lesson of how that children of Israel keep "playing the harlot" with G-d, following other gods, etc.

Perhaps Dauer or BB could comment on that.

Best regards,
Mark

pattimax · 05-25-2007, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

:

Judges 19:22
While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him.

I was confused as to what you meant. What is your question? My reply was concerning the worthless men who wanted to sodomize the visitor.

Quahom1 · 05-26-2007, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Hi All

I was searching for something in the Bible in BibleGateway.com and by accident came accross this verse - please can someone put it into context for me because I am sure I didn't learn this in sunday school:

Judges 19:22
While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him."

Thank you.
Salaam

A protectorate of the nation of Israel was sent to sooth the unruly mob of Benjamite/aliens, who would destroy the ambassador. That person was destroyed, so the ambassador went home and called upon the country to defend against such heinousness. The cut up body of the dead protectorate, sent to each tribe was proof of the despicable nature of the Benjamite/aliens. All but one of the tribes agreed to fight against. (the house of Israel is united but for one tribe, which means Israel is divided). Benjeman sided with the aliens...and became alien.

Rather than all of Israel being corrupted in the sight of God, they took to task to cut off that part of the "body" of them that was an abomination. They descimated their wayward brother's clan.

To answer your question, brother (corrupted by others), turned on the family, viciously. So family went after that arrogant brother, not so much for revenge, but to insure that the rest of the family would not be corrupted as well. They implored God "We can't live this way, with a brother who hates us."

It's alot like today's politics I hazard.

Interesting that you would find this particular passage, in your searches.

v/r

Q

Muslimwoman · 05-27-2007, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Interesting that you would find this particular passage, in your searches.

Hi Q

Yes I can see why it would seem odd. I was having a conversation with a Christian who seems to believe we must be 'sorrowful' all the time in order to be truly faithful to G-d. Sorry but I don't believe this and of course felt it fruitless to quote the Quran, so I searched for the word enjoy (amongst others) in the bible to see if I could quote something from his own scriptures to show that G-d does not want us to be miserable all our lives. That is why the word enjoy is in bold, as this was the word I searched. Sorry for long explanation but I don't want anyone to think I am looking for bad things in the Bible. Perhaps you could help me out with a verse that may help this person?

Salaam
MW

Muslimwoman · 05-27-2007, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pattimax

You know, depending only on Sunday school for knowledge of the Bible and Christian life in general can be rather naive. This is wonderful thing to question, it shines light. Thank you.

Sorry Pattimax but I have been a Muslim for a long time now so I can only rely on my Christian teachings of years ago when discussing Christianity. I never try to be rude to people of other faiths but there is much I still do not know and obviously a verse like that would not be taught to children. However, even as an adult I don't remember reading it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pattimax

I was confused as to what you meant. What is your question? My reply was concerning the worthless men who wanted to sodomize the visitor.

You understood me correctly, this was my question. I wanted to know how this 'incident' fits into the Bible and what lesson you are meant to take from it.

Salaam

Muslimwoman · 05-27-2007, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

They abuse her until morning and she dies on the doorstep of the old man's house. Her husband gets so torqued that he cuts up her body into twelve pieces and sends a piece to each tribe saying "look how the people of Benjamin treat strangers" (my words).

Hi Prober

Thankyou for your reply. Honestly the next time someone tells me the Quran is full of rape and violence I shall point them in this direction. What a terrible story and an awful example of a husband.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

The story has flavors of being a lesson of being kind to strangers and also possibly a lesson of how that children of Israel keep "playing the harlot" with G-d, following other gods, etc.

Errrmmm, now I really hope I am misunderstanding you. Please tell me the lesson is not 'be kind to strangers' and allow them to rape your wife to death or sodomise your male guest?????

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

Perhaps Dauer or BB could comment on that.

I take it from your comment this is from the old testament?

Salaam
MW

sam1008 · 05-27-2007, 02:52 AM

Here's some verses from the bible that spring to mind about being joyful:

Psalm 98:4
Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise.
Psalm 98:3-5 (in Context) Psalm 98 (Whole Chapter)
Psalm 98:6
With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King.

~
They spring to mind because I saw a documentary once about Sun Ra the mad jazz musician he was rehearsing with his band at his house when the police arrived because a neighbour had complained about the noise. When Sun Ra answered the door the police man asked him 'Whats going on?' Sun Ra said 'We're making a joyful noise unto the creator' then showed him the relevant Psalm in the bible so the police man left them to it.

Does Islam have the Psalms as part of their scripture?

sam1008 · 05-27-2007, 03:10 AM

The Benjamin tribe is almost destroyed by the rest of the Israelite tribes as a result of the sin. And also the tribe that didn't help in fighting the tribe of Benjamin is also almost destroyed. So the story conveys the message that not only the sinners and their protectors but also those who are passive in the face of sin are severely punished.

Prober · 05-27-2007, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Errrmmm, now I really hope I am misunderstanding you. Please tell me the lesson is not 'be kind to strangers' and allow them to rape your wife to death or sodomise your male guest?????

No. The lesson is...the actions of one or a few affect the lives of many.

A few "sons of Belial" messed it up for the whole tribe.

Quote:

I take it from your comment this is from the old testament?

Salaam

MW

Yes.

sam1008 · 05-27-2007, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Hi Q

Yes I can see why it would seem odd. I was having a conversation with a Christian who seems to believe we must be 'sorrowful' all the time in order to be truly faithful to G-d. Sorry but I don't believe this and of course felt it fruitless to quote the Quran, so I searched for the word enjoy (amongst others) in the bible to see if I could quote something from his own scriptures to show that G-d does not want us to be miserable all our lives. That is why the word enjoy is in bold, as this was the word I searched. Sorry for long explanation but I don't want anyone to think I am looking for bad things in the Bible. Perhaps you could help me out with a verse that may help this person?

Salaam
MW

1 Chronicles 16:10
Glory in his holy name; let the hearts of those who seek the LORD rejoice.
1 Chronicles 16:9-11 (in Context) 1 Chronicles 16 (Whole Chapter)

Psalm 66:1
Make a joyful noise unto God, all ye lands:
Psalm 66:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 66 (Whole Chapter)

sam1008 · 05-27-2007, 03:27 AM

It seems to me there are many lessons that can be drawn from the story as is true with His-story generally.

Prober · 05-27-2007, 03:30 AM

Indeed.

Welcome to CR, Sam1008!

sam1008 · 05-27-2007, 03:31 AM

Thanks! Nice to meet you.