Need Serious Help With This One :) - Page 4

Quahom1 · 03-13-2005, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit

When they looked onto the throne they saw...

A best seller????!!!!

Where is it, I'll buy it! That is better than the Da Vinci Code! It's got Mickey!

And I thought you were the stuffy serious type...

v/r

Q

p.s. sailors start with "This is a no Sh^&*r"...but that works.

Quahom1 · 03-13-2005, 02:18 AM

Now that that is out of the way, let's look at the original thought.

Quote by Basstian: Some believe the Righteous and Faithful have been predestinated to be saved.
This verse seems to support that idea but in a mirror effect that also the wicked are predestinated for the day of evil.

Proverbs 16:4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Only Solomon And the Prophet Jeremiah use this phrase "Day of evil"
Job Also Has a hint to this subject.

Job 21:30That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

Seems to be the same basic concept I would like to see others views on the interpretation of these two verses.

I am a firm believer that doctrine and beliefs should be established out of the mouths of two or more witnesses. (Or two or more verses out of the Bible)
This Idea that certian people are made wicked just doesnt seem right it boggles my mind to think about it.

Please analyze the verses first and what it is they refer to before addressing the issue of predestination.
I look forward to reading your thoughts.

~Peace~ :Basstian Quote.

Jesus said, "Many are called...few are chosen". I don't think He was indicating that the few were pre-destined to be chosen, only that of the many called, only a few would accept, and therefore, be chosen. Those that refused to accept would now fall into the category of that which you noted in Job and Proverbs.

There is no pre-destination, and as you noted earlier, the concern about being blotted out of the "Lamb's book of life" is very real. Free will is the culprit, despite the Lord's hope and wish. There is no fate but that which we choose, and which God will, accomodate us (however reluctantly). He made the rules, and He will not break them, for anyone.

v/r

Q

Basstian · 03-13-2005, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Jesus said, "Many are called...few are chosen". I don't think He was indicating that the few were pre-destined to be chosen, only that of the many called, only a few would accept, and therefore, be chosen. Those that refused to accept would now fall into the category of that which you noted in Job and Proverbs.

There is no pre-destination, and as you noted earlier, the concern about being blotted out of the "Lamb's book of life" is very real. Free will is the culprit, despite the Lord's hope and wish. There is no fate but that which we choose, and which God will, accomodate us (however reluctantly). He made the rules, and He will not break them, for anyone.

Thank you so very much Q I was really wanting to discuss these verses I am and glad you found the time to go back to them.

The risk of believing in pre-destination is becoming judgemental.
I find most who hold to P-D look at only the positive feeling blessed that they where "Chosen"
But the very Dark and negative side of that doctrine is only clear when you look at the flip side and try to decide who isnt.
I belive Jesus Died for the sins of the whole world. Not everybody will accept that. But nobody is pre-destinated not to.

Bandit · 03-13-2005, 02:53 AM

i think some believe in PD simply because they think it buys them an 'out'I was hanging with some Universalists for about a month. They came across real cool and loving but after about a month it was very obvious they did not really care about anyone and it was all phoney balogne and were set on PD.
They would condem people all the time with sarcasm, then turn around and say everyone gets in without doing anything and they can believe anything and do anything even blaspheme.

it really gets goofy when people cannot see evil is present.
looks like a trap and not a good way of thinking.

i have a descent example in thought. i will try to get it in wiritng. very basic and to the point.

have a good one all. it has been fun today.

Both of you, Q and Bass are on track according to the scriptures.

Quahom1 · 03-13-2005, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Basstian

Thank you so very much Q I was really wanting to discuss these verses I am and glad you found the time to go back to them.

The risk of believing in pre-destination is becoming judgemental.
I find most who hold to P-D look at only the positive feeling blessed that they where "Chosen"
But the very Dark and negative side of that doctrine is only clear when you look at the flip side and try to decide who isnt.
I belive Jesus Died for the sins of the whole world. Not everybody will accept that. But nobody is pre-destinated not to.

Ah, but that is the dark side of Christianity, in general. It is the "once saved" gambit, that gets us every time.

Like life, faith suffers from the "lazy". And God will not go back on His word, but some "fruit" is not so appetizing (probably why the world abhores Christians). I mean, who wants to taste spoiled fruit? And why do you suppose people approach some and say, "you're a real christian...not like those others I've met"...?

Our own worst enemy is us.

I want to stick to the original thought here, so I stop at this.

v/r

Q

Basstian · 03-13-2005, 04:49 AM

I am reminded when looking at this from the Pre-destination aspect. Of the Dark age Church selling indulgences. It was a way of Pre-Forgiveness before you commit a sin and really and one of the issues that got Martin Luther started on the path of reform.

Imagine being able to say I know I am going to Sin next tuesday because I am going to X town to do X thing. You then go to the priest tell him your plans and for a couple pieces of silver get a parchment saying your forgiven in advance.

This practice got so bad that some Churches where making rules forbidding harvesting during certian weeks (prime harvest times) farmers or land owners would then have to purchase indulgences to take in their crops. Now there is a money making idea. LOL (I am not saying this is a good thing just stating it happened)

I am not really sure of which verses from the Bible are used to validate the doctrinal idea of predestination if anybody knows I would love to go over them.

I want to be clear that I firmly believe God knows who what when and where. He knows which steps I will take before I do and I have got to believe He prepares my way lightng the path. But I cant really see that as Pre-Destination I see it more as a loving Father doing everything to guide me in the right direction. But only by my choice will I follow the path He has cleared.

BTW glad to see peace back on this thread again

Quahom1 · 03-13-2005, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Basstian

I am reminded when looking at this from the Pre-destination aspect. Of the Dark age Church selling indulgences. It was a way of Pre-Forgiveness before you commit a sin and really and one of the issues that got Martin Luther started on the path of reform.

Imagine being able to say I know I am going to Sin next tuesday because I am going to X town to do X thing. You then go to the priest tell him your plans and for a couple pieces of silver get a parchment saying your forgiven in advance.

This practice got so bad that some Churches where making rules forbidding harvesting during certian weeks (prime harvest times) farmers or land owners would then have to purchase indulgences to take in their crops. Now there is a money making idea. LOL (I am not saying this is a good thing just stating it happened)

I am not really sure of which verses from the Bible are used to validate the doctrinal idea of predestination if anybody knows I would love to go over them.

I want to be clear that I firmly believe God knows who what when and where. He knows which steps I will take before I do and I have got to believe He prepares my way lightng the path. But I cant really see that as Pre-Destination I see it more as a loving Father doing everything to guide me in the right direction. But only by my choice will I follow the path He has cleared.

BTW glad to see peace back on this thread again

I respectfully disagree Basstian. God knows who, what and that is it. I think (personal opinion), God deliberately removes Himself from the where and when. I don't know Why, only that I believe this very strongly. Speaking of which, Why is a mystery even to us individually, sometimes.

With man, I think God "dampers" some of His omnicients. Maybe because He loves a mystery. Maybe because God has more Hope in us than we have in ourselves, and is a "betting man".

Where do I get this idea from? he, he, ever play a video game? No fun if you know the end game, before you finish the game...

All you know is the game will end. How, is a different matter (remember Revelations, is not set in stone...it is what could be...if...)

v/r

Q

Bandit · 03-13-2005, 04:48 PM

Romans8:27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
8:28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
8:29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
8:30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. God has a purpose and he did predestinate.

Quote:

all things work together for good to them that love God

4309 proorizo pro-or-id'-zo from 4253 and 3724; to limit in advance, i.e. (figuratively) predetermine:--determine before, ordain, predestinate.

1:2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
1:3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
1:4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1:5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
1:6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
1:7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
1:8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
1:11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Verse 4 shows we were CHOSEN in Him before the foundation of the world. Before he ever created man we were chosen. World can also mean people or inabitants within the world.Verse 5 shows he did predestinate and we are adopted by Jesus for the good pleasure of His will. These verse show me that God has a will, a purpose and it is His good pleasure. Verse 11 shows again how we OBTAINED an inheritance, predestined according to His purpose.12 and 13 show how God first trusted in Christ, then we see how we also trust in Christ, but all this does not come until after we have HEARD the word of truth. It seems to me our own free will is within the will of God. This is how predestination, mans free will and the soveriegnty of God works together. Only His wisdom can do this.Then we have John 3:16 and other verses where God would have it that NONE should perish but that ALL would come to repentance and obtain the inheritance of everlasting life through Jesus.

Bandit · 03-13-2005, 04:52 PM

God knows and has planned all in advance, yet within that He has also made man with free will where we also have our own choices and will. He waits for every man to make his own choice. He does not force Himself on us. So what we want to learn is, the Will of God, just like Jesus sought not his own glory or will, but that of the fathers. The easiest way for me to see this is God as a parent. First we have to be born again of the spirit, in order for Him to be that father. A parent knows in advance there child will take his first steps, but he waits for it to happen and he is there when the child makes His attempt to walk in the spirit and he catches the child when he falls. The parent teaches do not touch the fire on the stove. But God knows we are going to stick our finger into it and get burned. Then he is there to comfort us when it happens. God knows in advance who will choose Him but allows every man to choose Him or discard Him. Is it possible to be out of the will of God?
I believe it is and the prodigal son is a good example of this.

Bandit · 03-13-2005, 05:07 PM

Gal1:3Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

will 2307 thelema thel'-ay-mah from the prolonged form of 2309; a determination (properly, the thing), i.e. (actively) choice (specially, purpose, decree; abstractly, volition) or (passively) inclination:-- desire, pleasure, will.

2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
2:16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
2:17And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. I am definately seeing the will of man and the will of God as choices and it is all within Gods plan. God chooses all men, but not all men choose Him.

Quahom1 · 03-13-2005, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandit

...The easiest way for me to see this is God as a parent. First we have to be born again of the spirit, in order for Him to be that father. A parent knows in advance there child will take his first steps, but he waits for it to happen and he is there when the child makes His attempt to walk in the spirit and he catches the child when he falls. The parent teaches do not touch the fire on the stove. But God knows we are going to stick our finger into it and get burned. Then he is there to comfort us when it happens. God knows in advance who will choose Him but allows every man to choose Him or discard Him. Is it possible to be out of the will of God?
I believe it is and the prodigal son is a good example of this.

Ok, ok...you had me at hello...

I like the Parent/child analogy. That works for me. By reflecting on my own children and memories, I can now understand the idea of a "pre-destination" of sorts. But I still think one of the mysteries remaining is that God can be surprised by man, just like my children often surprise me (sometimes exceeding expectations, and sometimes falling short of).

v/r

Q

Bandit · 03-13-2005, 07:09 PM

i think there are suprizes too. Extra help with the car or house. Funds for college. An inheritance put to the side. Some things along the way that we would not expect.
You need those suprizes. It lets you know children are on the right track and your joy is fulfilled when that happens.

When I see that 'fulness of time' it is like God waits for us to use those funds that he put to the side, and He is thrilled when we reach for them to use them to succeed or even when make mistakes. Then in return we give back to Him in different ways like praise and worship or offerings and thanksgiving.
Now God wont ever fall short, but we can. Even there in our short comings He has that pocket change and an endless supply of blessings.

Sometimes all it takes is for the father to hear that extra "Dad I love you and thanks for sacrificing your time to help me."

We give a dollar back in the offering. Sometimes we give 20 bucks and we are glad to do it and He waits and waits for our joy to be fulfilled in many ways.
God is our joy and we are His joy.

The same way a parent waits for graduation day for his kids. The greatest part is we know we have that inheritance waiting for us at the end of the line in eternal life.

He is our inheritance and rest. We are His inheritance and rest.

Sometimes there is chastisement and correction. But He has to, because he loves us and knows what is best and can see down the road where we can't and this works to keep us of out of mischief and danger.

It is really neat.