new palestinian peace plan!

[bananabrain]

well, this i find interesting:

ray hanania, the palestinian-american journalist, is proposing to run for president of the palestinian authority on a very interesting platform indeed, as detailed here at the huffington post:

Ray Hanania: Re-Energizing The Two-State Solution To Israeli-Palestinian Peace

it's been picked up in the israeli press by bradley burston of haaretz - you'll forgive the large c&p, but i think it's important in this case:

1. I support two-states, one Israel and one Palestine. As far as I am concerned, I can recognize Israel's "Jewish" character and Israelis should recognize Palestine's "non-Jewish" character.

2. I oppose violence of any kind from and by anyone. I reject Hamas' participation in any Palestinian government without first agreeing to surrender all arms and to accept two-states as a "final" peace agreement. But I also reject allowing Israeli settlers to carry any weapons and believe Israelis must impose the same restrictions on them.

3. I can support some settlements remaining - given the reality of 42 years of time passing - in a dunam-for-dunam land exchange. If Ariel is 500 dunams with a lifeline from Israel, then Israel gives Palestine 500 dunams in exchange.

4. Jerusalem should be a shared city and Palestinians should have an official presence in East Jerusalem. The Old City should be shared by both permitting open access to the city to all with a joint Palestinian-Israeli police presence.

5. Palestinian refugees would give up their demand to return to pre-1948 homes and lands lost during the conflict with Israel. Instead, some could apply for family reunification through Israel and the remainder would be compensated through a fund created and maintained by the United States, Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia and the United Nations.

6. I also think Israelis should find it in their hearts to show compassion and offer their apologies to Palestinians for the conflict.

7. I support creation of a similar fund to compensate those Jews from Arab lands who lost their homes and lands, too, when they fled.

8. I think the Wall should be torn down, or relocated to the new borders. I have no problem separating the two nations for a short duration to help rebuild confidence between our two people.

9. All political parties, Palestinian and Israelis, should eliminate languages denying each other's existence, and all maps should be reprinted so that Israeli maps finally show Palestine and Palestinian maps finally show Israel.

10. A subway system should be built linking the West Bank portion of the Palestine state to the Gaza Strip portion of the Palestine State. Palestine should be permitted to build a seaport access to strengthen its industry, and an airport to permit flights and too and from the Arab and Israeli world.

11. I would urge the Arab World to renew their offer to normalize relations with Israel if Israel agrees to support the creation of a Palestinian State.

12. And I would ask both countries to establish embassies in each other's country to address other problems.

13. While non-Jewish Palestinians would continue to live in Israel as citizens, Jews who wish to live in settlements surrendered by Israel could become Palestinian citizens and they should be recognized and treated equally.

14. If Jews want to live in Hebron, they should be allowed to live in Hebron and should be protected, just as non-Jews. In fact, for every Jewish individual seeking to live in Palestine, a Palestinian should be permitted to live in Israel. In fact, major Palestinian populations in Israel could be annexed into Palestine (like settlements).

15. Another concept is to have non-Jews living in Israel continue to live there but only vote in Palestinian elections, while Jews living in Palestine would only vote in Israeli elections. A special citizenship protection committee could be created to explore how to protect the rights of minorities in each state.

16. Israel and Palestine should create joint-governing and security agencies working with the United States to monitor the peace, and establish an agency to pursue criminal acts of violence.

As in every potentially workable peace proposal, something in it to upset and disappoint everyone. But its underlying principle of compromise based on mutual respect and compassion, its openness to the needs and wounds of two victimized peoples, and its suggestion that grassroots sentiment for peace can succeed where leaders have so consistently failed, are surely as worthy of serious consideration, as anything currently on the table.


A Palestinian peace plan Israelis can live with - Haaretz - Israel News

i think it's interesting, not least because virtually all of it, especially point 7, forms part of my own proposed solution - i just didn't think we were anywhere near ready for it to be discussed in public.

perhaps i'm wrong.

i really hope so!

thoughts? and can we keep it civilised for a change on this particular subject?

b'shalom

bananabrain

[17th Angel]

I never got the fuss :/ It's just land.....

*recalls the movie year one*

Zed: This is your land? All of it?
abraham: Yes... god gave us this land.
Isaac: I wish god would let everyone else know... We seem to have to fight for it every other day.

[dauer]

Ray Hanania: YouTube - Ray Hanania Comedy Profile

[Tao_Equus]

BB,
You know the Jews and Scots have something in common, they are both widely regarded as being mean and tight with money. Out of all the points on that list the one most important to you is the one that gives Jews money! I shake my head. The proposal as a whole is a good one. The most realistic one I have seen if we are ever going to see something called peace and reconciliation within those borders, and the region as a whole. But as I have always said, those that really make the decisions have worked hard to reach the status quo, they are not going to relinquish it just so people can feel happy and secure.

[rayhanania]

We need to create a new dialogue and discussion that gets us away from the old rhetoric of peace and peace game we have engaged in in the past. I'm hoping that this can stimulate a real discussion between peoples and that maybe can push our leaders to do the right thing and think out of the box. We need solutions not always dwelling on the past. The past is important and we should never forget, but the past should never become an obstacle to achieving peace and overcoming violence. I hope the plan, which I will be expanding on in coming weeks and months helps kick-start a new dialogue between Israelis and Palestinians ... and I appreciate you addressing it here.
Ray Hanania
YallaPeace dot com
Yalla Peace: The movement to restore grassroots support for a Two-State solution, Israel and Palestine

[nativeastral]

Originally Posted by dauer

Ray Hanania: YouTube - Ray Hanania Comedy Profile

yeh, great, the arts have the potential to help dissolve the barriers, Ray : 'comedy is more human than violence'.

Tao do you have to buy into stereotypes? speak for yourself, Scots, and am sure Jews, are very generous in giving money, even in hard times eg 'children in need' recently

Of course equity should be paramount. there was a Jewish women on a tv prog that had to leave gaza back then and she still lives in a crummy pre fab somewhere horrendous in Israel, she was a very unhappy bunny, let down by her own government.

[I, Brian]

It's very interesting - the point about the seaport and airport are probably key, actually. The more the West Bank is an economic wreck, the more chance of hate festering. The Palestinians are often portayed as having nothing to lose.

So give them something to lose - and effective and functioning economy - something Israel refuses to allow them.

The subway is an awful idea, though - massive terrorist target.

But the rest - certainly interesting.

And welcome to the Interfaith forums, Ray.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by rayhanania

We need to create a new dialogue and discussion that gets us away from the old rhetoric of peace and peace game we have engaged in in the past.

Hi Ray, it is an honor to meet you.

I'm hoping that this can stimulate a real discussion between peoples and that maybe can push our leaders to do the right thing and think out of the box. We need solutions not always dwelling on the past. The past is important and we should never forget, but the past should never become an obstacle to achieving peace and overcoming violence. I hope the plan, which I will be expanding on in coming weeks and months helps kick-start a new dialogue between Israelis and Palestinians ... and I appreciate you addressing it here.
Ray Hanania
YallaPeace dot com
Yalla Peace: The movement to restore grassroots support for a Two-State solution, Israel and Palestine

Ray, yes, it seems like a great deal of support is growing for the two state or even the three state solution. What are your thoughts about separate states for Gaza and the West Bank ? Indeed there are problems in the Golan Heights as well are there not ? And coincidentally, you views seem very consistent with a poster on this very board .

Now, please do a careful reading of some of the posters from Scotland, they do not seem to be big fans of Zionism, do you have any words of wisdom for Tao and NA ?

I also have a couple of questions for you, Ray:

1) I notice that you have a unique spelling of your name, ie all small letters which run together ,

2) Your name, "hanania", has the name "banana" neatly tucked inside .

Any relatives on this board, Ray ? I would love for you to meet my banned cousin, Ludvig, he is a big supporter of the two state solution, as long as it includes Bratwurst und ein Beck's !!

[Avi]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

BB,
You know the Jews and Scots have something in common, they are both widely regarded as being mean and tight with money.

Being serious for just one second (I know that is tough on this board ), I read somewhere that after the first exile, in 586 BC, it is believed the some of the Jews in the original 12 tribes were dispersed and may have ended up as far away as current day Britain. Has anyone else heard that ?

[bananabrain]

hi ray, i am extremely pleased you've seen this - can i also suggest you visit us over at the spittoon, as i know that site is followed by a number of key influencers in the uk.

you may also wish to enlist the support of other jewish organisations (or perhaps not, at this point, if it isn't helpful).

at any rate, i will do my bit to promote your vision, as it is one that as a zionist and a religious jew i feel i can share. if you wish for any assistance, please email me through this site or the spittoon.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

You know the Jews and Scots have something in common, they are both widely regarded as being mean and tight with money. Out of all the points on that list the one most important to you is the one that gives Jews money! I shake my head.

some might find this comment anti-semitic. i suggest you read what i said again and consider why i might have said it, given that it involves my own diaspora community and, incidentally, half of the israeli population. if you want to make jokes about this, i will refer you to the self-describing comment by the scottish-jewish comedian arnold brown: "two stereotypes for the price of one!"

i think this is important. i don't think your response is helpful.

Originally Posted by Avi

I read somewhere that after the first exile, in 586 BC, it is believed the some of the Jews in the original 12 tribes were dispersed and may have ended up as far away as current day Britain. Has anyone else heard that?

if you want to talk about this, i suggest you start another thread, because it's majorly off-topic. you're talking about the "british israelite" movement of the C19th, which is another version of the "lost ten tribes" cult. their rallying call was "brit ish - the covenant of man" - to which my rabbi often replies "brit 'ain" - "there's no such covenant".

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

some might find this comment anti-semitic. i suggest you read what i said again and consider why i might have said it, given that it involves my own diaspora community and, incidentally, half of the israeli population. if you want to make jokes about this, i will refer you to the self-describing comment by the scottish-jewish comedian arnold brown: "two stereotypes for the price of one!"

Yeh BB? Some might throw in the term anti-semitic just to make trouble and provoke. I maintain out of all the points on the list I find it incredible that you thought that one especially important. Not like Israelis don't get grossly disproportionate handouts from the US as it is.. Something like $14,500 per Isareli and $2 per Palestininian. But the validity of my observation is confirmed. All you care about is your own diaspora. That is another reason there will be no change there. You like to think you are working to be a part of the solution... I say your thinking is a part of the problem.

[I, Brian]

Of course, conversely, all Scottish people care more deeply about the English than Scots?

The point BB underlined I think was an important one - you compensate Palestinians who are displaced, but give consideration to Jews who need to be moved within accepted Israeli boundaries. I presume it costs money on both counts.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Of course, conversely, all Scottish people care more deeply about the English than Scots?

The point BB underlined I think was an important one - you compensate Palestinians who are displaced, but give consideration to Jews who need to be moved within accepted Israeli boundaries. I presume it costs money on both counts.

I do not disagree. Whoever needs help should get it. My point was how typical it was of BB out of all the points to choose just that one, the selfish one. Almost as typical as him using the term anti-semitic to deflect the attention away.

[bananabrain]

do you know what? i've had enough of this. that comment was WAY out of order. YOU made it. i called you on it. and you have the nerve to accuse ME of shutting down debate when it was you that tried to score a cheap point by calling me selfish and money-oriented? that is quite simply not on and i'm not having it. you don't understand the point i'm making. i'm not talking about settlers being moved into israel. i am talking about HALF OF THE POPULATION OF ISRAEL, WHICH WAS EXPELLED FROM IRAQ, YEMEN, EGYPT, ALGERIA, TUNISIA, IRAN, SYRIA, LEBANON AND CENTRAL ASIA AND FORCED TO LEAVE THEIR ASSETS BEHIND which were then claimed by those regimes. they are REFUGEES, just like the palestinian diaspora are for the most part refugees. that is what point 7 is about and it is not about the future movement of settlers, or selfishness, but RECIPROCITY and righting a historical wrong just as it proposes doing the same for the palestinians - to which i have NO objection. ray hanania deserves immense support for having the courage and integrity to bring it up, but no, *you* have to turn it into a cheap personal attack on me. this is so typical of your mean-minded, one-sided approach to the middle east. it is people like you that are keeping the fight going. stop it.

i am *this* close to removing your comments from the thread. if you insist on accusing me of shutting down debate when it was you that derailed the debate in the first place, i might as well be attacked for something i've actually done.

b'shalom

bananabrain